Episode Transcript
The transcript is auto generated. There may be errors in transcription.
Susie: I don't really think of retirement necessarily as something you do that's binary. It needs to be thought of as transitioning from working full time in a traditional environment to other ways of working. And other ways of living,
Where you might be in and out of the workforce, doing different things, taking time out until eventually you stop working completely.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to how to live a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad Lal. This is episode 28.
What could early retirement look like? How should we think about retirement? That's the topic of today's podcast. We have with us, Susie Babani. Susie describes herself as an adventurer at large. Eight years back, she was at the top of the corporate ladder global chief HR for ANZ bank reporting to the global CEO.
Looking after an organisation of over 50,000 people spread across the world, Susie's worked in the UK, Australia, China, Philippines, Canada, and the United States leading the HR function and being the COO of various businesses.
She has been a pioneer in a conservative industry, banking. Back in 2015, she brought gender balance. Hiring supported pride parades, and pushed the bank towards social media, herself becoming a LinkedIn power profile.
Susie then opted for early retirement. And for the past seven years she's been travelling the world and spending time with friends across the globe. She's been to over 125 countries at the time of recording with plans for many more in the future.
In this episode, Susie and I talk about how we should think about early retirement. What are the options of transitioning from a full on career to retirement? How can retirement life be both fun and stimulating? We will cover this and a lot more. Susie is such an inspiration. Having worked really hard, she excelled and reached the top of the banking industry. Then she flipped her life around and retired early and started living her dream life: luxury, travel, study, meaningful experiences, fun with friends and more.
But before getting to the interview, here's thanking all of you for supporting this podcast. With your support. We hit number three in Singapore. We are top 5% globally and are listened to in over 65 countries. And over 500 cities. Please do consider giving us a reading on Spotify, apple podcast, or wherever you're listening to this.
Thank you in advance. Now here's the interview.
Sharad: Hi, Susie. Welcome to how to live. How are you doing this morning?
Susie: Hi, Sharad thanks for having me on and I'm doing very well. Thank you from not so sunny London, but no surprises there.
Sharad: No surprises. And I know London is a place where you come to do your laundry to get things in order. And then of course, you go out travelling and we're gonna get into your travelling and retirement life. But before we get there, if we can turn the clock back a few years, I think to seven years you were at the top of your game with ANZ bank.
You are the global head HR reporting to the global CEO for an organisation with over 50,000 people working under you.
Having reached the top at that time. I know you had various options available to you. What were those options and how did you evaluate the next step in life?
Susie: As is often the case, I didn't end up doing what I thought I might do, but essentially there was a new CEO in the role. It was an internal appointment. I'd done this role for about eight years. And I knew I didn't wanna do another seven years, which I expected the new CEO to want.
I joined with a brand new CEO and I felt it would be fine for me to move on.
I was trying to make a list as I was thinking about this. First of all, doing the same somewhere else. So being another global head of HR, but quite honestly, it didn't interest me.
I felt that part of my life was done and dusted, and I didn't really need to do more of the same. You've finally done too many reorganisations and centralizations, and decentralizations, you're like I really don't wanna do anymore.
Thank you very much. So that was off the agenda. I also looked briefly at being a consultant very briefly. I have to say I used a lot of consultants in my professional career and I'm not that wild on them.
And I suppose that's because I prefer to execute strategy again, rather than have people pontificate about what should be done, usually at a vast cost. So I didn't feel I could really be a consultant. I'm too much of a. Execution person. One of the things I did look at seriously, and I dunno how common this is in Singapore, but it's certainly big in the UK and Europe and I think starting in Australia too, is interim management. So that's where you would go into a company for a period of say up to six months and help them with whatever issues they're dealing with.
And there's quite a lot of demand for that, especially for functional people like HR, finance, risk, compliance, because those skills are actually quite portable. So I did quite a lot of investigating. I used my networks and got intros to anyone who either facilitated those kinds of assignments or had done it themselves. Um, and it is quite a useful way to fund semi retirement because you can work as, and when you choose, although once you're committed to an assignment, you've obviously gotta stick with it, to build up your reputation, but then you can get income to fund other things you might like to do for the rest of the time.
And actually I have a very good friend who does that. Also in HR, he works about six to eight months a year and has done this for about four or five years. So he is getting a good reputation as someone that can do stuff that needs doing. It might be finding a new HR head or dealing with a senior reorganisation.
And he picks and chooses his assignments. Now the ones that interest him and the companies that interest him and he is pretty good at sticking to not taking everything he's offered, cuz he could work full time if he wanted to.
I certainly looked at it. In quite a lot of detail, but then I knew I wanted to spend more time travelling and learning and reading and just to be so I got to the point of realising that any work would interfere with that. And so I know I would find it very hard not to be 150% committed to any job I did.
And I'd be back to where I was and I'd probably be charging for fairly the hours I was meant to be, but working twice as long. So I discarded that.
I looked at part-time but similar issues really, it's obviously similar to interim, but it's more fixed. And it does give you steady work and more free time that you can start to do other things. But again, it wasn't gonna work for me with travel. I looked at volunteering. And that's something I'd still like to do, especially anything involved with museums, art or even tourism?
Quite honestly, I like people, but again, not easy to do if you're not in one place, because if you volunteer, you've got to commit for certain hours. And if you're not there, that's a problem.
Obviously everyone said to me, “Oh, Susie, you've gotta go on a board. That's what everybody does.” And again, I did a lot of research. Again, I used all my contacts in search consultancies, people that were already on boards, anyone that knew anybody in the UK, Australia, Asia, Dubai, everywhere that I happened to be travelling, I would meet people in that first year of travel just to see what the options were.
And it's a good option in the sense that the hours are not too bad, but you are committed. You do need to be there in person quite often, even in the zoom world, if there's eight meetings a year, they probably want you there for five or six of them. So again, not great if you are a traveller, but something I haven't totally discarded, but maybe I would look to do that when.
Settle down if that ever happens. And then I looked at studying. Again, a good friend of mine like me had never gone to university.
I never went to university. Although I studied evenings for relevant professional roles. But I missed a chance to just enjoy learning about things that you're interested in, rather than what's forced down here at school. I decided to defer any serious studies. If you ask for things, they come to you because in the end. I did end up doing a lot of studying because of the lockdown. So I was stuck in Melbourne during lockdown for about, I went for a month-long trip and ended up there for 20 months. I discovered the world of free education basically. And. Things like course Sarah and CARNA academy to access, oh gosh, everything from world history to history of art, Dutch art, history of rock and roll, even American history.
And it, I really enjoyed, it was a nice sort of 20 minute chunk of video. You didn't have to pass exams. You could just learn what you were interested in. So I got at least my wish to study, not quite in the way I would've expected. But it's great. What's available. And I think people thinking about that kind of thing need to be aware how many apps and facilities are around for people to just learn stuff they're interested in for nothing,
Sharad: Thanks for that. You've been through a very detailed analysis of what you wanted to do. And you thought a lot about getting the best of both worlds. The interim work, where six months you work six months off and then you realise knowing yourself, it's not necessarily gonna be six months, you might be all in.
So you really wanted to take time off. And that's where you came to the decision to retire.
Susie: Yeah.
Sharad: So was it like a decision? Alright, I'm gonna retire from this day onwards and this is what retired life looks like or did it organically happen? Like how did that decision take place?
Susie: Yes. That word retirement is very tricky because it makes you feel old. I don't, certainly people in my generation, it makes you feel like you're on the slippery slope. I used to say I was on a sabbatical mostly because I originally thought I might do some sort of activity and I still might.
Sharad, I never say never about anything. You just don't know. But I felt at this time I didn't want to work. Maybe I'd put it that way. I wanted to do other things other than working for someone else.
I'm a very independent person. I like my freedom. and I spent 39 years working. I started work when I was 18 and I didn't have time off, no kids or anything. So I worked solidly for 39 years and I have to say, I felt a bit like I did, when I left school, then grew out of it. The last couple of years of school, I thought I'm just too grown up for school.
These rules are annoying me and I need to get out. And I felt the same way about work. I did it, but you know what? I'm finished. I'm quite happy to finish. Although I would say that in the first year I felt a bit guilty about not wanting to work. I felt I would miss it and I didn't. But in the end I decided, hang on a minute, you've worked a long time, more than many people actually work in their lives.
And the whole point of that was to use that working time and the money you earned to enjoy yourself afterwards. And afterwards is now arrive suddenly, and there it was
Sharad: That's such an interesting thing, especially for a high achievement person like you. Suddenly not being productive and saying oh my God, I need to do something. And then telling yourself, you know what, you've done a whole lot. You've gone right to the top. This is your time to rest. You can do what you want.
And that's fine.
Susie: I think so. Although I have to say it doesn't feel like rest because I'm always, I'm a very curious individual and I'm always doing stuff. The other thing is when people say they're bored, I'm never bored. It's true what people say, you wonder how you ever fit working. There are so many things to do.
Particularly when you're not locked up, but even when you're locked up that's how you can ever be bored. If you're curious and interested in what's going on around you, there's always stuff to do so I've not been bored and I haven't missed work at all.
Sharad: That is so good to hear. And what were some of the activities that you got involved in? Let's not talk lockdown, but without lockdown, some of the things that you did that quenched your curiosity
Susie: I think mostly when I first started travelling, I started writing a blog actually. And so I did that for about two and a half years. So originally I thought I'll travel for a year. And then that year went by far too quickly and I thought, oh, I'll do a bit more. And then it was about two and a half to three years and then lockdown happened.
But as soon as I could get started again. Back in October last year I was off again. So I think I'm quite a restless soul. I need to be moving around and so I'm very organised and I do organise all my travel. I do the research, I do the booking. I do the flights. I decide how I want to travel, where I want to go.
And who I want to go with. So I'm quite happy being a solo traveller, again, that wouldn't be for everyone, but I'm quite happy. When I'm in a place, I'm then doing the research of all the things I might be able to do in that place.
Especially things that may be a bit more off the *beaten track. One of the things I've discovered in all of the travelling that some locations like, like Rome, was nice. I rented an apartment for a month. That way I could really get into living in the neighbourhood. I could find my favourite coffee and gelato place.
I could not cram everything in one typically does in Rome, I could Potter around the museums and the galleries and do a few things that I hadn't done before. But you're not in such a rush. When you're working your travel is very much restricted by the time off and trying to cram as much as you can into each visit. That's not the case now, I can actually take my time and spend longer in places. So yeah and then catching up with friends is what I spend a lot of time doing as well, I've worked in four continents and about six countries.
And I have a lot of friends as a result of that, all around the world. So travel's also given me an opportunity to either see them near where they live or. To meet up with them somewhere they want to go. So even this year, since everyone's desperate to get out again. I did meet one, one friend of mine from the UK in Rome for a week. I was on a cruise with some cruise buddies I'd met in the past.
I visited a whole lot of places in the US with two Canadian friends. I'm just back from a few days in Poland where I went with an American friend. And I have a Turkey and Greece visit for next month with an Australian friend. So it's great to meet up with people actually in that context, because you get time, quality time, as they say, to spend with them and just chat and catch up and the way you can't do when you're just meeting for a quick meal.
And I enjoy the journey and the planning often as much as the destination, I'm just very organised. I love organising all that kind of stuff and sorting my itinerary out and everything.
Sharad: Susie. That sounds so wonderful. Your life centres around these two things that you are passionate about, and many of us, travel and travel, like you said, is so different from the travel you do. When you're working, it's leisure travel. Slow starts, long breakfast coffees, walking around, studying places.
And then of course friends. What a beautiful life. One of the things that struck me when I was trying to set this interview with you is that typically when I set interviews with people, they say, “Hey, I have a meeting conflict. I'm travelling to work. I'm doing these things.” You said, “I can't do this time because I have a salon appointment.”
I love that.
Susie: Hugely important, all those things need to be done.
Sharad: Absolutely. No, I love that. That just gives me such a sense of what early retirement could look like, priorities in life. Like you already have in terms of travel things that you want to do, can you paint a picture of what days could look like, and I get the sense days are different, but what life could look like right now when you're retired and travelling and where you're living, where do you go?
How do you plan? Just if you could paint a vision of that.
Susie: I'm a bit obsessed with the number of countries that I can visit, between now and death cause that's obviously the end of the road. So I'm up to 124 now and still counting, I'm very keen to just keep extending that as much as I can.
I'm usually planned 6, 8, 12 months in advance. So I know where I'm gonna be between now and April for sure next year. I'm also trying to add somewhere. I haven't been to if I can, or a couple of new countries. So that's always one of my key things to do.
I like a mix, as I say, of planning, staying in an apartment. So thank goodness for Airbnb and the equivalence. Sometimes hotels, sometimes cruises and sometimes with friends. So I take a mix of that. I like to go back every year to Australia because I spent the last 10 years living there.
I have a lot of friends. It's very easy for me to just morph into being there for four or five weeks. So I tend to go and also the weather's great in January and February. It's a great place to be not as opposed to the Northern hemisphere. I nearly always try and aim to go there. I try to aim to go to the US, particularly New York, which is another place I lived in and my favourite city in the world.
So if I can engineer that. I'm still also trying to catch up on things that I didn't do in 2020 and 21 that I'd booked.
One of those was visiting the stands, doing the silk route. Which I'm hopefully gonna do next year, to Kazakhstan and TAshkent, Samarkand and all of that kind of stuff. I do like to just keep moving. I actually enjoy airports. I know this is a bit of a shocker, but I do.
I have to say, I enjoy them. If I can fly business class, not so much if I'm flying economy, I have to be honest. But I do, I like travelling. So I like the journey. Maybe that's how I feel about it. Generally. So there is no such thing as a typical day, I could be having my hair done as you quite rightly say. Today I'm going after, this afternoon, I'm going to an exhibit at the quartal gallery on *munk, and then I'm gonna see a ballet this evening in the South Pacific at saddle as well.
So that could be a typical London day.
Sometimes I do actually do nothing. Which I do need to remember to do cause actually I'm very active, I love to read. And so sometimes I just have to say, you know what, you can just take two hours and do nothing, or sit in the coffee bar and read your book or listen to an audible book or whatever happens to be.
Doing that's also important. And then you also have to remember there's still admin. So I think, when you go on holiday the boring things you say, oh, I'll do that when I get home. But when you are living as a sort of permanent itinerant traveller, you still have to pay bills and pay for your insurance and remember to pay the tax people and check things that need checking and all that kind of stuff that you have to do has to be done on the go.
Thank God for iPads and phones, because it's so much easier to do just about everything online.
Sharad: Absolutely. As you set upon this life, what were the biggest surprises? Both pleasant and unpleasant that you've had.
Susie: I think the biggest surprises aside from not missing work at all, which was a surprise to me. Cause I thought, when you've done something for 39 years, you think you're gonna miss it, but I didn't. At all, only the people, but again, I've stayed in touch with all the people I wanna stay in touch with over the years.
So that bit’s still there. I think what surprised me the most, because really for a long time, I just lived out of two suitcases. So for two and a half years, I just had two suitcases that I took everywhere and it made me realise how little I need material things.
So I think when you're in the work environment you're buying all the clothes and the jewellery and, blah, blah, blah. And actually when you've only got two suitcases, first of all, everything you buy means you have to chuck something else out, so you gotta be quite disciplined.
And you realise that you just don't need all that stuff. And neither do I need lots of space to feel comfortable. I had an apartment in Melbourne, obviously where I lived before I was finished working, but I sold that. And so most of the time I'm in a room or occasionally in a one bedroom apartment, if I'm renting an apartment, but I don't need more space.
And I don't need my own things around me either. I'm not someone that needs to see the photos and the stuff that I have. That's quite a pleasant thing, actually. So I think mostly I get enjoyment from the experience of the moment, if you don't grab things now, then when are you gonna do it?
You might as well do it now. So that's pretty good. That was a good surprise. I enjoyed writing the blog on my travels. I haven't taken that up again. I tend to post on Instagram and Facebook now, but that was fun because it taught me a new skill: how to write a blog and how to get followers.
I thought it would be a good way for me to record what I was doing and that I'd look back on it and see what I, where I'd been and what I'd done. But actually, I very rarely looked back on it. I realise I'm just not someone who looks backwards. I like now and tomorrow and further ahead if I'm planning, cuz you've gotta be organised, but I'm not someone. I don't tend to look back at stuff at all. So that was interesting, but I was glad I learned how to do a blog. Gives you the confidence to know you can learn new things. And it also gave me discipline, which I was a bit concerned I might lack when I finished working. So writing the blog on a daily basis, short, but at least it made me do it and think about it. And also I enjoyed photography, especially as I've got more into posting on Instagram, I'm really enjoying how you can make things look and how you can make things attractive, travel wise.
So those are good surprises, really, unpleasant. Oh, Just again, the reminder that the best laid plans can be decimated when the unexpected happens, in I'm half German, Sharad and in Germany, they have a saying that says, Gott lacht, während wir Pläne schmieden, which roughly translated means God laughs while we make plans.
And I think it's a good thing to bear in mind, really, I am an adaptable person, so every time anything was cancelled, I just rebooked it again. And in many cases again and again, because I really am optimistic and believe it would eventually happen as indeed it has. Everything does pass in the end and there are some benefits of getting older where you take things a little bit. In a relaxed way, I think I'm Benjamin button in a way. I think I'm reverse. I was a very sensible teenager, very sensible in studying in my twenties while I was working. And as I've got older, I've become more relaxed, less bothered, more free wheeling, probably who I really am.
Because I can, when you work in a company you gotta tow the line to some degree and you've gotta do what needs to be done. So I think, yes things happening that you don't expect, but then learning to be adaptable.
Sharad: That's so good. Discipline is one of the things that many people talk about there. When we retire early, we'll just let it go. So it's good to see that you have a few activities that keep you disciplined, like the blog paying bills. What are the other things that just help you stay focused and disciplined?
Susie: I think I'm just innately that kind of person to be honest, it's that German side again, I hate to say it, but I am disciplined. I always like to know. It's not that I like every minute planned because I don't, but equally. I'm often someone who will go, how can I put this?
I'll decide to go for a two hour walk to an area. Like I might look on the map of London and say, I'll go somewhere I've never been before. Wherever that might be and check the neighbourhood out. That's the discipline bit. But once I'm in that place, I will just free wheel or I might go to see one particular thing that I know is there, but then I'll just wander around, just walk down alleyways.
Just to see what cuz you never know what you come up with and you often find stuff that’s very unexpected. And then, there's some interesting apps that you can use. I like Atlas obscura. I dunno if you've come across that one, which tells you all sorts of unusual things that exist in places all around the world, actually, it's cool.
Wacky, unusual things. So sometimes I'll search those out. So the discipline is to say, I will do this, but how I will do it and where it will lead is the free wheeling bit of me. So I try and bring the two together.
Sharad: And I also like this thing of trying something new, writing a blog, you mentioned so many interesting apps that you've started using. So many interesting experiences that you've started carving out.
You're doing courses, you're reading you, you are using your mind in so many other different things.
Susie: I try to and I certainly try to keep up with technology as much as I can, I'm very grateful that I'm probably. The oldest group that at least had to learn technology at work, cuz people that are 10 years older than me really struggle with a lot of this.
I really do try to use technology to make life simpler, easier, faster, get rid of the noise of things that you don't really wanna spend a lot of time doing. While remaining sensible about it, and that includes sometimes not sensible things like playing video games.
I do that sometimes too, just cuz you know, it's relaxing. But I do love technology. I love apps and what they can do. Anything that makes life simpler and easier gets my vote. As far as I'm concerned.
Sharad: That's so inspiring. You're living the life you're meant to live. Like you said, you're becoming who you are now. You did the hard work to do that. Initially in your early years, you put in the hard work that enabled you to have this life. And now you're becoming who you're meant to be.
And you're learning new things. You're trying new things. And of course you're enjoying the experiences that you have. That is so inspirational to people.
Susie: Thank you.
Sharad: Are there any things in yourself that you've seen discovered about yourself during this time with this space that have surprised you about yourself?
Susie: Not really. I've always been very independent. I've known that for a long time. I'm quite happy with my own company, but I'm also quite gregarious. If I do go on a cruise on my own or go somewhere, I'll just start chatting to people.
I don't find that surprising. That's one of the benefits of having worked in the corporate world. You get pretty good at making small talk and just chatting to people you don't know, and meeting customers and all that kind of thing. But I enjoy it. I'm just interested in people and always have been, and I'll talk to anybody anywhere, but equally, sometimes I'll just go and have a coffee and bury my nose in a book.
And not talk to anyone. That's fine too. I like both. I'm an only child, so I'm used to my own company. I try to get some balance in both of them.
Sharad: Creating a life like this. What planning went into this?
Susie: In some ways I've been planning it all my life because my generation Sharad, when we started work we were still in an era, you'd work for 40 years. You'd get your defined benefit pension in those days.
And then that would be that. So partly that was always in my mind. People at work used to say to me, oh, you work so hard. And what about work life balance? And I said I have work life balance. My work life balance for the first 20 years, doing nothing next 40 years working very hard next 20 years doing nothing perfect.
50/50. I choose to do that because that suits me. I've always been kind of a jam tomorrow person. I always used to do my homework on a Saturday morning, so that I could enjoy the rest of the weekend. And so 40 years of work is like homework so that you can enjoy the rest of your life.
It works for me. But I don't have kids and my priorities are different. And so I preferred to put all the effort in at the time I could, I was lucky. I worked in banking. Banking is a well paid industry, that really helped. I was also lucky because I worked overseas for quite some time.
And in those days, expat assignments meant housing was available and that enables you to save money. So I'm under no illusions that I'm, just also the right time, right place. Has enabled me financially.
But I'm also conscious that things are very different now. Nowadays I expect people are gonna work much longer certainly into their sixties, if not into their seventies, partly cuz they're gonna live longer partly, and they're gonna have to fund that longer life.
So it sounds great, but you gotta pay for it.
I think what will happen now is that more people need to start thinking, who am I and what do I want out of life? And I'm seeing lots of people change their working patterns, take sabbaticals, which I think are great. To experience things like being with young children while they're young. They're not young forever.
So if you can take time off knowing that you're still gonna be working for much longer and can therefore build up the income to eventually have the retirement you want, then I say, go for it. Other people will say, “Oh, I dunno. I'm just gonna do everything I can,” but like I did and then enjoy the rest at the end of it.
We're all different. So I think the hard thing is maybe looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, what do I want out of my life now? And in the future, how do I trade off each of those things? I'm not sure, I totally believe in the you can have it all at once. I think you can have it all if you think about it, but you're not necessarily gonna get everything at the same time and you may have to compromise certain things. I have to confess, I like to travel in style, in reasonable style. That costs money. Other people are quite happy not to travel at all, or to travel with a backpack on their back.
And that's fine. And therefore, what you plan and try and achieve financially to do that will differ from person to person. You just have to be realistic about it.
Sharad: And often when people are thinking of early retirement, especially people my age I'm 45 or people, even at the age of 40, they start trying to get some number in mind. Hey, I need to make this much. And then I think I can retire. Do you think, firstly, how important is a number?
Is there a number that you had in mind and beyond a number? Are there other things that people need to consider as they're thinking of early retirement?
Susie: I don't really think of retirement necessarily as something you do that's binary. It needs to be thought of as transitioning from working full time in a traditional environment to other ways of working. And other ways of living, as well, so that you are actually thinking, how do I get to the point?
Because a lot of people would struggle. I didn't, but I know a lot of people would struggle with stopping work and have struggled on a Friday and waking up on a Monday and having nowhere to go. And no one who values their opinion and no one asking what they should do. That's quite stressful for a lot of people.
So I'm a big one for a lot of people to transition, to think about how they could work different hours or take time off, and come back into the workforce. So let's say people in their late fifties and sixties are really valuable to come back and help to mentor and teach.
Younger people coming through organisations, but they don't wanna work full time, but they do wanna do something useful. I think companies are going to start to be much more amenable to that, particularly as the younger generation is reducing and they're gonna need to look towards older people, I think for support. They can't even fill jobs now as it is. But yet there's a massive grey market. That's desperately underutilised, particularly I would have to say the female grey market
People in that position need to start to sell themselves a little bit and say, Hey, here's what I can do for you. And I think companies will be more flexible than maybe they've been in the past to say, great, let's go for it.
And so I think this early retirement to me is more of a transitory arrangement where you might be in and out of the workforce, doing different things, taking time out until eventually you stop working completely. And that will depend on you. I know people in their eighties that still work because they love it.
It gives them a reason to get up in the morning and that's fine too.
Sharad: I love the thought and transition because it's not a retirement and you're retiring, but you're transitioning and that could look like anything depending on who you are.
Susie: I think also, Sharad, never say never, as I said to you earlier, I don't say that I would never work again. Will I ever work full time in a corporate? No, but will I ever work again? I might, if someone had something interesting that I wanted to do and I probably wouldn't do it so much because of the money, but I would just do it for the fun of it or cause it's interesting.
I might, as I say, you never know until interesting things come along, whether you want to do it or not.
Sharad: Absolutely. If you have to do it again, will there be anything you do differently?
Susie: Yeah I, talk to myself and say, don't feel guilty about not working
Sharad: Mm Hmm.
Susie: You don't need to feel guilty. You work bloody hard and actually you really don't need to feel guilty, but. Other than that? No, I consider myself very fortunate to live the life I live.
Sharad: As we close this off, is there anything else you would like to tell people in their forties or thinking of retirement, early retirement? I know we've discussed a bit, but anything else you'd like to leave them with?
Susie: I think, take advice from everyone. One of the things I used to find at work is that people are woeful at networking.
Use the contacts. You have to get different opinions and approaches and talk to financial planners. Do the maths, build a bit of a cushion for the unexpected, never forget about the importance of health. You can have all the money and finances in the world. If you're not healthy, it's for nothing.
But use your contacts and network. You'd be surprised how many you have. Pick up the phone. Most people will give you the benefit of their advice for a cup of coffee, I found. So talk to them, talk to as many people as you can, because you'll get different perspectives that you maybe haven't thought of.
Sharad: That's very useful advice, Susie. Thank you very much for such a good conversation before we go. One last question that I ask everyone, at the end of your life, how would you know you've lived a good life?
Susie: Maybe I'll have hit 150 countries.
Sharad: On your way there.
Susie: On my way there. And, hopefully I know I didn't do anything bad to anyone that has hurt them. I would like to think that, I'm very down to earth about these things when you're gone and you're forgotten in a hundred years. So I don't. I used to always be asked about what legacy do you want to leave?
And it used to make me laugh and maybe it's an English thing, but, I would say. Most of us will never leave any legacy because within a hundred years of death, no one will be alive that remembers us. But if I was William Shakespeare or someone, yes, he left a legacy, and that's okay, who cares.
Doesn't really. So I can't get too excited about these things. That's just me personally.
Sharad: Sure thing, Susie and you're living true to who you are. That's so beautiful to see. There's so many takeaways from our conversation today, but my biggest takeaway is you've preloaded your life with hard work. And now you can be who you really wanna be. You're happy, you're living the life that you'd like to, you're truly an inspiration to everyone, Susie. Thank you very much for your time. And I really thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you.
Susie: Thank you, Sharad and I enjoyed it very much too. Thanks so much.
Sharad: Thank you, Susie, for such an uplifting conversation. You've given many of us inspiration on how to think about transitioning towards slowing down in life.
If you are listening, and enjoyed this episode, you could consider listening to episode 24, where we talked to stand up comedian Papa CJ on how to convert a passion into a career. And also episode two, where we discuss achievement versus fulfilment.
Sharad: Here's one action step we could consider. What could our retired life look like? Many of us think of retirement as going from one to zero.
However, like Susie mentioned, there are many options to transitioning from a full on career. What type of transition works best for us? What could it look like in terms of location, activities flow of the year, et cetera,
It's good to have a starting thought and then evolve this with time. Once we have a good sense of this, we can think of the best way to plan for transitioning from a full-time career.
Enjoy the exercise. That's it. For today's episode, we will be back with another episode two weeks from now. I hope you join us for that. Till next time. Have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye.
The transcript is auto generated. There may be errors in transcription.
Susie: I don't really think of retirement necessarily as something you do that's binary. It needs to be thought of as transitioning from working full time in a traditional environment to other ways of working. And other ways of living,
Where you might be in and out of the workforce, doing different things, taking time out until eventually you stop working completely.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to how to live a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad Lal. This is episode 28.
What could early retirement look like? How should we think about retirement? That's the topic of today's podcast. We have with us, Susie Babani. Susie describes herself as an adventurer at large. Eight years back, she was at the top of the corporate ladder global chief HR for ANZ bank reporting to the global CEO.
Looking after an organisation of over 50,000 people spread across the world, Susie's worked in the UK, Australia, China, Philippines, Canada, and the United States leading the HR function and being the COO of various businesses.
She has been a pioneer in a conservative industry, banking. Back in 2015, she brought gender balance. Hiring supported pride parades, and pushed the bank towards social media, herself becoming a LinkedIn power profile.
Susie then opted for early retirement. And for the past seven years she's been travelling the world and spending time with friends across the globe. She's been to over 125 countries at the time of recording with plans for many more in the future.
In this episode, Susie and I talk about how we should think about early retirement. What are the options of transitioning from a full on career to retirement? How can retirement life be both fun and stimulating? We will cover this and a lot more. Susie is such an inspiration. Having worked really hard, she excelled and reached the top of the banking industry. Then she flipped her life around and retired early and started living her dream life: luxury, travel, study, meaningful experiences, fun with friends and more.
But before getting to the interview, here's thanking all of you for supporting this podcast. With your support. We hit number three in Singapore. We are top 5% globally and are listened to in over 65 countries. And over 500 cities. Please do consider giving us a reading on Spotify, apple podcast, or wherever you're listening to this.
Thank you in advance. Now here's the interview.
Sharad: Hi, Susie. Welcome to how to live. How are you doing this morning?
Susie: Hi, Sharad thanks for having me on and I'm doing very well. Thank you from not so sunny London, but no surprises there.
Sharad: No surprises. And I know London is a place where you come to do your laundry to get things in order. And then of course, you go out travelling and we're gonna get into your travelling and retirement life. But before we get there, if we can turn the clock back a few years, I think to seven years you were at the top of your game with ANZ bank.
You are the global head HR reporting to the global CEO for an organisation with over 50,000 people working under you.
Having reached the top at that time. I know you had various options available to you. What were those options and how did you evaluate the next step in life?
Susie: As is often the case, I didn't end up doing what I thought I might do, but essentially there was a new CEO in the role. It was an internal appointment. I'd done this role for about eight years. And I knew I didn't wanna do another seven years, which I expected the new CEO to want.
I joined with a brand new CEO and I felt it would be fine for me to move on.
I was trying to make a list as I was thinking about this. First of all, doing the same somewhere else. So being another global head of HR, but quite honestly, it didn't interest me.
I felt that part of my life was done and dusted, and I didn't really need to do more of the same. You've finally done too many reorganisations and centralizations, and decentralizations, you're like I really don't wanna do anymore.
Thank you very much. So that was off the agenda. I also looked briefly at being a consultant very briefly. I have to say I used a lot of consultants in my professional career and I'm not that wild on them.
And I suppose that's because I prefer to execute strategy again, rather than have people pontificate about what should be done, usually at a vast cost. So I didn't feel I could really be a consultant. I'm too much of a. Execution person. One of the things I did look at seriously, and I dunno how common this is in Singapore, but it's certainly big in the UK and Europe and I think starting in Australia too, is interim management. So that's where you would go into a company for a period of say up to six months and help them with whatever issues they're dealing with.
And there's quite a lot of demand for that, especially for functional people like HR, finance, risk, compliance, because those skills are actually quite portable. So I did quite a lot of investigating. I used my networks and got intros to anyone who either facilitated those kinds of assignments or had done it themselves. Um, and it is quite a useful way to fund semi retirement because you can work as, and when you choose, although once you're committed to an assignment, you've obviously gotta stick with it, to build up your reputation, but then you can get income to fund other things you might like to do for the rest of the time.
And actually I have a very good friend who does that. Also in HR, he works about six to eight months a year and has done this for about four or five years. So he is getting a good reputation as someone that can do stuff that needs doing. It might be finding a new HR head or dealing with a senior reorganisation.
And he picks and chooses his assignments. Now the ones that interest him and the companies that interest him and he is pretty good at sticking to not taking everything he's offered, cuz he could work full time if he wanted to.
I certainly looked at it. In quite a lot of detail, but then I knew I wanted to spend more time travelling and learning and reading and just to be so I got to the point of realising that any work would interfere with that. And so I know I would find it very hard not to be 150% committed to any job I did.
And I'd be back to where I was and I'd probably be charging for fairly the hours I was meant to be, but working twice as long. So I discarded that.
I looked at part-time but similar issues really, it's obviously similar to interim, but it's more fixed. And it does give you steady work and more free time that you can start to do other things. But again, it wasn't gonna work for me with travel. I looked at volunteering. And that's something I'd still like to do, especially anything involved with museums, art or even tourism?
Quite honestly, I like people, but again, not easy to do if you're not in one place, because if you volunteer, you've got to commit for certain hours. And if you're not there, that's a problem.
Obviously everyone said to me, “Oh, Susie, you've gotta go on a board. That's what everybody does.” And again, I did a lot of research. Again, I used all my contacts in search consultancies, people that were already on boards, anyone that knew anybody in the UK, Australia, Asia, Dubai, everywhere that I happened to be travelling, I would meet people in that first year of travel just to see what the options were.
And it's a good option in the sense that the hours are not too bad, but you are committed. You do need to be there in person quite often, even in the zoom world, if there's eight meetings a year, they probably want you there for five or six of them. So again, not great if you are a traveller, but something I haven't totally discarded, but maybe I would look to do that when.
Settle down if that ever happens. And then I looked at studying. Again, a good friend of mine like me had never gone to university.
I never went to university. Although I studied evenings for relevant professional roles. But I missed a chance to just enjoy learning about things that you're interested in, rather than what's forced down here at school. I decided to defer any serious studies. If you ask for things, they come to you because in the end. I did end up doing a lot of studying because of the lockdown. So I was stuck in Melbourne during lockdown for about, I went for a month-long trip and ended up there for 20 months. I discovered the world of free education basically. And. Things like course Sarah and CARNA academy to access, oh gosh, everything from world history to history of art, Dutch art, history of rock and roll, even American history.
And it, I really enjoyed, it was a nice sort of 20 minute chunk of video. You didn't have to pass exams. You could just learn what you were interested in. So I got at least my wish to study, not quite in the way I would've expected. But it's great. What's available. And I think people thinking about that kind of thing need to be aware how many apps and facilities are around for people to just learn stuff they're interested in for nothing,
Sharad: Thanks for that. You've been through a very detailed analysis of what you wanted to do. And you thought a lot about getting the best of both worlds. The interim work, where six months you work six months off and then you realise knowing yourself, it's not necessarily gonna be six months, you might be all in.
So you really wanted to take time off. And that's where you came to the decision to retire.
Susie: Yeah.
Sharad: So was it like a decision? Alright, I'm gonna retire from this day onwards and this is what retired life looks like or did it organically happen? Like how did that decision take place?
Susie: Yes. That word retirement is very tricky because it makes you feel old. I don't, certainly people in my generation, it makes you feel like you're on the slippery slope. I used to say I was on a sabbatical mostly because I originally thought I might do some sort of activity and I still might.
Sharad, I never say never about anything. You just don't know. But I felt at this time I didn't want to work. Maybe I'd put it that way. I wanted to do other things other than working for someone else.
I'm a very independent person. I like my freedom. and I spent 39 years working. I started work when I was 18 and I didn't have time off, no kids or anything. So I worked solidly for 39 years and I have to say, I felt a bit like I did, when I left school, then grew out of it. The last couple of years of school, I thought I'm just too grown up for school.
These rules are annoying me and I need to get out. And I felt the same way about work. I did it, but you know what? I'm finished. I'm quite happy to finish. Although I would say that in the first year I felt a bit guilty about not wanting to work. I felt I would miss it and I didn't. But in the end I decided, hang on a minute, you've worked a long time, more than many people actually work in their lives.
And the whole point of that was to use that working time and the money you earned to enjoy yourself afterwards. And afterwards is now arrive suddenly, and there it was
Sharad: That's such an interesting thing, especially for a high achievement person like you. Suddenly not being productive and saying oh my God, I need to do something. And then telling yourself, you know what, you've done a whole lot. You've gone right to the top. This is your time to rest. You can do what you want.
And that's fine.
Susie: I think so. Although I have to say it doesn't feel like rest because I'm always, I'm a very curious individual and I'm always doing stuff. The other thing is when people say they're bored, I'm never bored. It's true what people say, you wonder how you ever fit working. There are so many things to do.
Particularly when you're not locked up, but even when you're locked up that's how you can ever be bored. If you're curious and interested in what's going on around you, there's always stuff to do so I've not been bored and I haven't missed work at all.
Sharad: That is so good to hear. And what were some of the activities that you got involved in? Let's not talk lockdown, but without lockdown, some of the things that you did that quenched your curiosity
Susie: I think mostly when I first started travelling, I started writing a blog actually. And so I did that for about two and a half years. So originally I thought I'll travel for a year. And then that year went by far too quickly and I thought, oh, I'll do a bit more. And then it was about two and a half to three years and then lockdown happened.
But as soon as I could get started again. Back in October last year I was off again. So I think I'm quite a restless soul. I need to be moving around and so I'm very organised and I do organise all my travel. I do the research, I do the booking. I do the flights. I decide how I want to travel, where I want to go.
And who I want to go with. So I'm quite happy being a solo traveller, again, that wouldn't be for everyone, but I'm quite happy. When I'm in a place, I'm then doing the research of all the things I might be able to do in that place.
Especially things that may be a bit more off the *beaten track. One of the things I've discovered in all of the travelling that some locations like, like Rome, was nice. I rented an apartment for a month. That way I could really get into living in the neighbourhood. I could find my favourite coffee and gelato place.
I could not cram everything in one typically does in Rome, I could Potter around the museums and the galleries and do a few things that I hadn't done before. But you're not in such a rush. When you're working your travel is very much restricted by the time off and trying to cram as much as you can into each visit. That's not the case now, I can actually take my time and spend longer in places. So yeah and then catching up with friends is what I spend a lot of time doing as well, I've worked in four continents and about six countries.
And I have a lot of friends as a result of that, all around the world. So travel's also given me an opportunity to either see them near where they live or. To meet up with them somewhere they want to go. So even this year, since everyone's desperate to get out again. I did meet one, one friend of mine from the UK in Rome for a week. I was on a cruise with some cruise buddies I'd met in the past.
I visited a whole lot of places in the US with two Canadian friends. I'm just back from a few days in Poland where I went with an American friend. And I have a Turkey and Greece visit for next month with an Australian friend. So it's great to meet up with people actually in that context, because you get time, quality time, as they say, to spend with them and just chat and catch up and the way you can't do when you're just meeting for a quick meal.
And I enjoy the journey and the planning often as much as the destination, I'm just very organised. I love organising all that kind of stuff and sorting my itinerary out and everything.
Sharad: Susie. That sounds so wonderful. Your life centres around these two things that you are passionate about, and many of us, travel and travel, like you said, is so different from the travel you do. When you're working, it's leisure travel. Slow starts, long breakfast coffees, walking around, studying places.
And then of course friends. What a beautiful life. One of the things that struck me when I was trying to set this interview with you is that typically when I set interviews with people, they say, “Hey, I have a meeting conflict. I'm travelling to work. I'm doing these things.” You said, “I can't do this time because I have a salon appointment.”
I love that.
Susie: Hugely important, all those things need to be done.
Sharad: Absolutely. No, I love that. That just gives me such a sense of what early retirement could look like, priorities in life. Like you already have in terms of travel things that you want to do, can you paint a picture of what days could look like, and I get the sense days are different, but what life could look like right now when you're retired and travelling and where you're living, where do you go?
How do you plan? Just if you could paint a vision of that.
Susie: I'm a bit obsessed with the number of countries that I can visit, between now and death cause that's obviously the end of the road. So I'm up to 124 now and still counting, I'm very keen to just keep extending that as much as I can.
I'm usually planned 6, 8, 12 months in advance. So I know where I'm gonna be between now and April for sure next year. I'm also trying to add somewhere. I haven't been to if I can, or a couple of new countries. So that's always one of my key things to do.
I like a mix, as I say, of planning, staying in an apartment. So thank goodness for Airbnb and the equivalence. Sometimes hotels, sometimes cruises and sometimes with friends. So I take a mix of that. I like to go back every year to Australia because I spent the last 10 years living there.
I have a lot of friends. It's very easy for me to just morph into being there for four or five weeks. So I tend to go and also the weather's great in January and February. It's a great place to be not as opposed to the Northern hemisphere. I nearly always try and aim to go there. I try to aim to go to the US, particularly New York, which is another place I lived in and my favourite city in the world.
So if I can engineer that. I'm still also trying to catch up on things that I didn't do in 2020 and 21 that I'd booked.
One of those was visiting the stands, doing the silk route. Which I'm hopefully gonna do next year, to Kazakhstan and TAshkent, Samarkand and all of that kind of stuff. I do like to just keep moving. I actually enjoy airports. I know this is a bit of a shocker, but I do.
I have to say, I enjoy them. If I can fly business class, not so much if I'm flying economy, I have to be honest. But I do, I like travelling. So I like the journey. Maybe that's how I feel about it. Generally. So there is no such thing as a typical day, I could be having my hair done as you quite rightly say. Today I'm going after, this afternoon, I'm going to an exhibit at the quartal gallery on *munk, and then I'm gonna see a ballet this evening in the South Pacific at saddle as well.
So that could be a typical London day.
Sometimes I do actually do nothing. Which I do need to remember to do cause actually I'm very active, I love to read. And so sometimes I just have to say, you know what, you can just take two hours and do nothing, or sit in the coffee bar and read your book or listen to an audible book or whatever happens to be.
Doing that's also important. And then you also have to remember there's still admin. So I think, when you go on holiday the boring things you say, oh, I'll do that when I get home. But when you are living as a sort of permanent itinerant traveller, you still have to pay bills and pay for your insurance and remember to pay the tax people and check things that need checking and all that kind of stuff that you have to do has to be done on the go.
Thank God for iPads and phones, because it's so much easier to do just about everything online.
Sharad: Absolutely. As you set upon this life, what were the biggest surprises? Both pleasant and unpleasant that you've had.
Susie: I think the biggest surprises aside from not missing work at all, which was a surprise to me. Cause I thought, when you've done something for 39 years, you think you're gonna miss it, but I didn't. At all, only the people, but again, I've stayed in touch with all the people I wanna stay in touch with over the years.
So that bit’s still there. I think what surprised me the most, because really for a long time, I just lived out of two suitcases. So for two and a half years, I just had two suitcases that I took everywhere and it made me realise how little I need material things.
So I think when you're in the work environment you're buying all the clothes and the jewellery and, blah, blah, blah. And actually when you've only got two suitcases, first of all, everything you buy means you have to chuck something else out, so you gotta be quite disciplined.
And you realise that you just don't need all that stuff. And neither do I need lots of space to feel comfortable. I had an apartment in Melbourne, obviously where I lived before I was finished working, but I sold that. And so most of the time I'm in a room or occasionally in a one bedroom apartment, if I'm renting an apartment, but I don't need more space.
And I don't need my own things around me either. I'm not someone that needs to see the photos and the stuff that I have. That's quite a pleasant thing, actually. So I think mostly I get enjoyment from the experience of the moment, if you don't grab things now, then when are you gonna do it?
You might as well do it now. So that's pretty good. That was a good surprise. I enjoyed writing the blog on my travels. I haven't taken that up again. I tend to post on Instagram and Facebook now, but that was fun because it taught me a new skill: how to write a blog and how to get followers.
I thought it would be a good way for me to record what I was doing and that I'd look back on it and see what I, where I'd been and what I'd done. But actually, I very rarely looked back on it. I realise I'm just not someone who looks backwards. I like now and tomorrow and further ahead if I'm planning, cuz you've gotta be organised, but I'm not someone. I don't tend to look back at stuff at all. So that was interesting, but I was glad I learned how to do a blog. Gives you the confidence to know you can learn new things. And it also gave me discipline, which I was a bit concerned I might lack when I finished working. So writing the blog on a daily basis, short, but at least it made me do it and think about it. And also I enjoyed photography, especially as I've got more into posting on Instagram, I'm really enjoying how you can make things look and how you can make things attractive, travel wise.
So those are good surprises, really, unpleasant. Oh, Just again, the reminder that the best laid plans can be decimated when the unexpected happens, in I'm half German, Sharad and in Germany, they have a saying that says, Gott lacht, während wir Pläne schmieden, which roughly translated means God laughs while we make plans.
And I think it's a good thing to bear in mind, really, I am an adaptable person, so every time anything was cancelled, I just rebooked it again. And in many cases again and again, because I really am optimistic and believe it would eventually happen as indeed it has. Everything does pass in the end and there are some benefits of getting older where you take things a little bit. In a relaxed way, I think I'm Benjamin button in a way. I think I'm reverse. I was a very sensible teenager, very sensible in studying in my twenties while I was working. And as I've got older, I've become more relaxed, less bothered, more free wheeling, probably who I really am.
Because I can, when you work in a company you gotta tow the line to some degree and you've gotta do what needs to be done. So I think, yes things happening that you don't expect, but then learning to be adaptable.
Sharad: That's so good. Discipline is one of the things that many people talk about there. When we retire early, we'll just let it go. So it's good to see that you have a few activities that keep you disciplined, like the blog paying bills. What are the other things that just help you stay focused and disciplined?
Susie: I think I'm just innately that kind of person to be honest, it's that German side again, I hate to say it, but I am disciplined. I always like to know. It's not that I like every minute planned because I don't, but equally. I'm often someone who will go, how can I put this?
I'll decide to go for a two hour walk to an area. Like I might look on the map of London and say, I'll go somewhere I've never been before. Wherever that might be and check the neighbourhood out. That's the discipline bit. But once I'm in that place, I will just free wheel or I might go to see one particular thing that I know is there, but then I'll just wander around, just walk down alleyways.
Just to see what cuz you never know what you come up with and you often find stuff that’s very unexpected. And then, there's some interesting apps that you can use. I like Atlas obscura. I dunno if you've come across that one, which tells you all sorts of unusual things that exist in places all around the world, actually, it's cool.
Wacky, unusual things. So sometimes I'll search those out. So the discipline is to say, I will do this, but how I will do it and where it will lead is the free wheeling bit of me. So I try and bring the two together.
Sharad: And I also like this thing of trying something new, writing a blog, you mentioned so many interesting apps that you've started using. So many interesting experiences that you've started carving out.
You're doing courses, you're reading you, you are using your mind in so many other different things.
Susie: I try to and I certainly try to keep up with technology as much as I can, I'm very grateful that I'm probably. The oldest group that at least had to learn technology at work, cuz people that are 10 years older than me really struggle with a lot of this.
I really do try to use technology to make life simpler, easier, faster, get rid of the noise of things that you don't really wanna spend a lot of time doing. While remaining sensible about it, and that includes sometimes not sensible things like playing video games.
I do that sometimes too, just cuz you know, it's relaxing. But I do love technology. I love apps and what they can do. Anything that makes life simpler and easier gets my vote. As far as I'm concerned.
Sharad: That's so inspiring. You're living the life you're meant to live. Like you said, you're becoming who you are now. You did the hard work to do that. Initially in your early years, you put in the hard work that enabled you to have this life. And now you're becoming who you're meant to be.
And you're learning new things. You're trying new things. And of course you're enjoying the experiences that you have. That is so inspirational to people.
Susie: Thank you.
Sharad: Are there any things in yourself that you've seen discovered about yourself during this time with this space that have surprised you about yourself?
Susie: Not really. I've always been very independent. I've known that for a long time. I'm quite happy with my own company, but I'm also quite gregarious. If I do go on a cruise on my own or go somewhere, I'll just start chatting to people.
I don't find that surprising. That's one of the benefits of having worked in the corporate world. You get pretty good at making small talk and just chatting to people you don't know, and meeting customers and all that kind of thing. But I enjoy it. I'm just interested in people and always have been, and I'll talk to anybody anywhere, but equally, sometimes I'll just go and have a coffee and bury my nose in a book.
And not talk to anyone. That's fine too. I like both. I'm an only child, so I'm used to my own company. I try to get some balance in both of them.
Sharad: Creating a life like this. What planning went into this?
Susie: In some ways I've been planning it all my life because my generation Sharad, when we started work we were still in an era, you'd work for 40 years. You'd get your defined benefit pension in those days.
And then that would be that. So partly that was always in my mind. People at work used to say to me, oh, you work so hard. And what about work life balance? And I said I have work life balance. My work life balance for the first 20 years, doing nothing next 40 years working very hard next 20 years doing nothing perfect.
50/50. I choose to do that because that suits me. I've always been kind of a jam tomorrow person. I always used to do my homework on a Saturday morning, so that I could enjoy the rest of the weekend. And so 40 years of work is like homework so that you can enjoy the rest of your life.
It works for me. But I don't have kids and my priorities are different. And so I preferred to put all the effort in at the time I could, I was lucky. I worked in banking. Banking is a well paid industry, that really helped. I was also lucky because I worked overseas for quite some time.
And in those days, expat assignments meant housing was available and that enables you to save money. So I'm under no illusions that I'm, just also the right time, right place. Has enabled me financially.
But I'm also conscious that things are very different now. Nowadays I expect people are gonna work much longer certainly into their sixties, if not into their seventies, partly cuz they're gonna live longer partly, and they're gonna have to fund that longer life.
So it sounds great, but you gotta pay for it.
I think what will happen now is that more people need to start thinking, who am I and what do I want out of life? And I'm seeing lots of people change their working patterns, take sabbaticals, which I think are great. To experience things like being with young children while they're young. They're not young forever.
So if you can take time off knowing that you're still gonna be working for much longer and can therefore build up the income to eventually have the retirement you want, then I say, go for it. Other people will say, “Oh, I dunno. I'm just gonna do everything I can,” but like I did and then enjoy the rest at the end of it.
We're all different. So I think the hard thing is maybe looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, what do I want out of my life now? And in the future, how do I trade off each of those things? I'm not sure, I totally believe in the you can have it all at once. I think you can have it all if you think about it, but you're not necessarily gonna get everything at the same time and you may have to compromise certain things. I have to confess, I like to travel in style, in reasonable style. That costs money. Other people are quite happy not to travel at all, or to travel with a backpack on their back.
And that's fine. And therefore, what you plan and try and achieve financially to do that will differ from person to person. You just have to be realistic about it.
Sharad: And often when people are thinking of early retirement, especially people my age I'm 45 or people, even at the age of 40, they start trying to get some number in mind. Hey, I need to make this much. And then I think I can retire. Do you think, firstly, how important is a number?
Is there a number that you had in mind and beyond a number? Are there other things that people need to consider as they're thinking of early retirement?
Susie: I don't really think of retirement necessarily as something you do that's binary. It needs to be thought of as transitioning from working full time in a traditional environment to other ways of working. And other ways of living, as well, so that you are actually thinking, how do I get to the point?
Because a lot of people would struggle. I didn't, but I know a lot of people would struggle with stopping work and have struggled on a Friday and waking up on a Monday and having nowhere to go. And no one who values their opinion and no one asking what they should do. That's quite stressful for a lot of people.
So I'm a big one for a lot of people to transition, to think about how they could work different hours or take time off, and come back into the workforce. So let's say people in their late fifties and sixties are really valuable to come back and help to mentor and teach.
Younger people coming through organisations, but they don't wanna work full time, but they do wanna do something useful. I think companies are going to start to be much more amenable to that, particularly as the younger generation is reducing and they're gonna need to look towards older people, I think for support. They can't even fill jobs now as it is. But yet there's a massive grey market. That's desperately underutilised, particularly I would have to say the female grey market
People in that position need to start to sell themselves a little bit and say, Hey, here's what I can do for you. And I think companies will be more flexible than maybe they've been in the past to say, great, let's go for it.
And so I think this early retirement to me is more of a transitory arrangement where you might be in and out of the workforce, doing different things, taking time out until eventually you stop working completely. And that will depend on you. I know people in their eighties that still work because they love it.
It gives them a reason to get up in the morning and that's fine too.
Sharad: I love the thought and transition because it's not a retirement and you're retiring, but you're transitioning and that could look like anything depending on who you are.
Susie: I think also, Sharad, never say never, as I said to you earlier, I don't say that I would never work again. Will I ever work full time in a corporate? No, but will I ever work again? I might, if someone had something interesting that I wanted to do and I probably wouldn't do it so much because of the money, but I would just do it for the fun of it or cause it's interesting.
I might, as I say, you never know until interesting things come along, whether you want to do it or not.
Sharad: Absolutely. If you have to do it again, will there be anything you do differently?
Susie: Yeah I, talk to myself and say, don't feel guilty about not working
Sharad: Mm Hmm.
Susie: You don't need to feel guilty. You work bloody hard and actually you really don't need to feel guilty, but. Other than that? No, I consider myself very fortunate to live the life I live.
Sharad: As we close this off, is there anything else you would like to tell people in their forties or thinking of retirement, early retirement? I know we've discussed a bit, but anything else you'd like to leave them with?
Susie: I think, take advice from everyone. One of the things I used to find at work is that people are woeful at networking.
Use the contacts. You have to get different opinions and approaches and talk to financial planners. Do the maths, build a bit of a cushion for the unexpected, never forget about the importance of health. You can have all the money and finances in the world. If you're not healthy, it's for nothing.
But use your contacts and network. You'd be surprised how many you have. Pick up the phone. Most people will give you the benefit of their advice for a cup of coffee, I found. So talk to them, talk to as many people as you can, because you'll get different perspectives that you maybe haven't thought of.
Sharad: That's very useful advice, Susie. Thank you very much for such a good conversation before we go. One last question that I ask everyone, at the end of your life, how would you know you've lived a good life?
Susie: Maybe I'll have hit 150 countries.
Sharad: On your way there.
Susie: On my way there. And, hopefully I know I didn't do anything bad to anyone that has hurt them. I would like to think that, I'm very down to earth about these things when you're gone and you're forgotten in a hundred years. So I don't. I used to always be asked about what legacy do you want to leave?
And it used to make me laugh and maybe it's an English thing, but, I would say. Most of us will never leave any legacy because within a hundred years of death, no one will be alive that remembers us. But if I was William Shakespeare or someone, yes, he left a legacy, and that's okay, who cares.
Doesn't really. So I can't get too excited about these things. That's just me personally.
Sharad: Sure thing, Susie and you're living true to who you are. That's so beautiful to see. There's so many takeaways from our conversation today, but my biggest takeaway is you've preloaded your life with hard work. And now you can be who you really wanna be. You're happy, you're living the life that you'd like to, you're truly an inspiration to everyone, Susie. Thank you very much for your time. And I really thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you.
Susie: Thank you, Sharad and I enjoyed it very much too. Thanks so much.
Sharad: Thank you, Susie, for such an uplifting conversation. You've given many of us inspiration on how to think about transitioning towards slowing down in life.
If you are listening, and enjoyed this episode, you could consider listening to episode 24, where we talked to stand up comedian Papa CJ on how to convert a passion into a career. And also episode two, where we discuss achievement versus fulfilment.
Sharad: Here's one action step we could consider. What could our retired life look like? Many of us think of retirement as going from one to zero.
However, like Susie mentioned, there are many options to transitioning from a full on career. What type of transition works best for us? What could it look like in terms of location, activities flow of the year, et cetera,
It's good to have a starting thought and then evolve this with time. Once we have a good sense of this, we can think of the best way to plan for transitioning from a full-time career.
Enjoy the exercise. That's it. For today's episode, we will be back with another episode two weeks from now. I hope you join us for that. Till next time. Have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye.