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Episode Transcript
Nikki Muller: Home means more than just where you currently live. It's your traditions. It's the rituals. Home for us, we don't define as a place. Home transcends geographical boundaries for us, and we find our sense of belonging is much more deeply rooted in people rather than places.
Sharad Lal: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Live a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm Sharad Lal. This is episode 49.
Did you know that 220 million people live in a country different from their passport country? Many of us are raising third-culture kids, Individuals who grew up in a unique way with both gifts and challenges.
Today we delve deep into this fascinating world of third-culture kids. As I sit down with true authority in this field, Nikki Muller. Nikki is not only an expert, but a third culture kid, making her insights all the more valuable.
Work and personal experiences have shaped her Into a Walker and inspiring voice for the TCK community, guiding others to navigate the complexities of their backgrounds.
Nikki's journey began at a young age when she became a star in the entertainment space at just 15, she captured the hearts of many as an MTV host and co-hosted studio Disney. Talents were recognized at the age of 20 receiving a nomination for best entertainment presenter at the prestigious Asian Television Awards.
Her remarkable career includes working with industry legends, Like director Kevin Bright on the hit series Friends. She's also shared the stage with Robert Downey Jr. And Samuel L. Jackson at various events.
And she's even made an appearance in HBO's Westworld. But that's not all. Nikki's passion for theatre led her to be nominated as the best actress for Pangdemonium's Compelling one-woman production Girls and Boys. Beyond the glitz and glamour. Nikki has also contributed her talents to the United Nations. Having worked at the headquarters in New York. In today's conversation. Nikki. And I delve into the intriguing world of third culture kids discussing identity relationships work, and the challenges of raising TCK. Her infectious energy shines through as she shares personal experiences and valuable research on TCKs.
As a parent raising TCK is myself. I must confess I had an ulterior motive for this conversation. To gain insights that will not only enrich my life but the lives of countless others in Singapore and beyond. So let's dive into this fascinating conversation with Nikki Mueller. But before getting to the podcast.
Thank you for your support. We're now listened to in over 120 countries And are in the top 5% of the world. If you haven't already please do consider subscribing Do consider giving us a rating as well Thank you in advance now here's the conversation
Hi Nikki. Good morning. How are you doing this morning?
Nikki Muller: I am bursting with joy, and that is 100% true. I cannot believe I'm on your podcast. Thank you for the opportunity.
Sharad Lal: Thank you very much for making time Nikki and congratulations on the huge success you've had right from the age of 15 today we're going to talk about TCK's third culture kids and before we get into it so that everyone's on the same plane can you help us define what exactly are third culture kids?
What are Third Culture Kids?
Nikki Muller: Third Culture Kids really describes a very enriched childhood, a highly mobile, Global childhood.
Imagine a kid who has spent a significant portion of their childhood, either from day one to the age of 18, travelling from country to country, changing schools, changing environments, changing language, changing friends, changing homes, everything over and over again, during a very trying time of your formative years.
Those are very significant formative years because that's a time where you're still developing your personal and cultural identity, right? And we all know change is hard and there's stress that comes with change and you compound that in your childhood by your environment and all the systems and everything that you know and come to love changes.
But with that is a really incredible experience. A lot of third culture kids would say they grew up living in two worlds, which is that of high anxiety because you're always anticipating disruption, but at the same time, so much excitement and joy because you have this inherent global curiosity.
And what's important to note is that it means you're growing up in countries other than where your parents are from or what your passport says.
A lot of people nowadays might confuse being mixed race, biracial, parents of different backgrounds as being third culture. Third culture has nothing to do with race. It has to do with high mobility during childhood.
Sharad Lal: Thank you for defining that. And the way you were talking about it, the fashion with which you were talking about both the good as well as the challenges, the anxiety as well as the openness that was so exciting to hear.
What got you interested in this topic to go deeper and research about it?
What Got Nikki Interested in the Topic?
Nikki Muller: I would say 2020 changed everything for everyone around the world, right? The onset of the pandemic. I think that was big for me because when the world came to a standstill and I lived alone, I'm an only child and I'm living in Singapore, I've lived here 13 years now. I was alone.
So I was like, what do I do now with my life? Do I stay here? Do I go? And if I go, the only place I can go, I'm allowed to legally go is Switzerland. I'm half Swiss, I'm half Filipino. And I like it, but I don't even really know Switzerland. What am I going to do there?
So I had all these questions of who am I? Who I am is a tough question to ask a third culture kid because if you look at the whole definition of identity and I'll ask you this Sharad, when I say identity, what makes your identity? Do you have, you just throw whatever's top of mind of, what would consider or be an element of what creates identity? What would you say?
Sharad Lal: I think it's very confusing even if you're not a third culture kid. I've grown up somewhere, a small city, then I went to a bigger city, then went to a new country. Am I that person who grew up? Am I this person now?
So I struggle with identity even without being a third culture kid who's grown up in different countries. So I think if you have that complexity on top of that. Identity becomes an extremely difficult question.
Nikki Muller: Yes, you're absolutely right. You hit the nail on the head there. And that's what I was feeling. And so the more I research about identity, especially in childhood, the things that mirror around us, that create and contribute to identity, are a few things. One of them, of course, is your social setting, your school, your friends.
One is your family, or your home, your physical home, and the people that you grew up with. Maybe it's the social groups that you belong to as well, whether it's sports clubs. And sports, we know, is all about belonging. We all cheer for this team. We all belong in this tribe, right? So there's different communities.
And it could be religious communities, too, wherever it is that you worship with your family. All of these elements create community. Now imagine when all of those elements that I just mentioned change over and over again. That is a confusing identity for a kid, And I only started to realise the effects of this in my adulthood.
Because you don't think about it when you're a kid. You don't have time. So your identity becomes collective, meaning you start to pick up nuances and ideas and systems of thinking from the places that you lived amongst the people you lived with over and over again. It becomes a much more global, collective identity. You take elements of it, but you don't have full ownership of any of them.
So for me, I started to look into that and I went, why do I feel this way? Aha, there's something called a third culture kit. It has been researched by sociologists and anthropologists since the late 1950s. I couldn't believe it. There is language now and science and data that describes People like me and it's not, I always say it's not a small pond experience.
There are over 220 million third culture kids out there or people who are highly nomadic. And that's about 10 million more than the population of Brazil. And immigration is really growing. Europe and Asia have the largest number of international immigrants. So we're looking at about 4% of the world's population is highly mobile and it's growing and that's why you see transnational marriages.
So all of these things I started to research and I went, aha, this is great. I'm starting to understand who I am slowly. But to be very honest with you, the more sensitive part of this question is something that's very important that a lot of adults who had a TCK upbringing only start to understand later on is this very real issue of unresolved grief.
There wasn't a lot of time to say goodbye or to understand what was happening. You were just thrown into a new world and you were told, swim. And we're really good at it. We're really adaptable, highly flexible, and extremely resilient, but it came at a price.
And as a child. You go through a pretty complex time, but what's also great is you move on really quickly. We have such a move-forward mentality. We're not so interested in where we came from. We're more interested in where we're going.
the more awareness that you bring to this and the more you can say, hey, the challenges are now my strengths. And I can do a lot of great good in this world as a result. And actually, it's the greatest gift that was given to me.
Sharad Lal: Thank you. So fascinating, Nikki.
And I'd love to dig a little bit into your childhood. Where did you grow up?
Some experiences that you recollect and what impact have they had on you?
Nikki's Childhood
Nikki Muller: Before I had any knowledge of the third culture experience and the data and the research behind it. I used to describe my life as a series of jump cuts in a movie. From one scene to the other, there was no transition.
I don't know if you remember, it was one of those James Bond movies. Halle Berry came out of the ocean and then in the next scene, she completely dried her swimsuit. It was just like that. A third culture kid experience for me was like that. We often bookend our life through countries. Because never shall the twain meet, the worlds and the people in them.
They just seem like isolated moments in time. I'm very excited about my wedding because it'll be the only day in my life where all elements of my highly global incredible world will come together and they'll meet each other and understand who I am as a result of meeting each other. So I'm half Swiss and half Filipino.
I was born in Switzerland three weeks later, immediately on a plane. My parents are like that, when we lived in England and in Hong Kong and the Philippines, United States. Many of them several times over the years. So for me, the experience was very cool because my Christmases were in the Philippines.
And the Filipinos love to party, the fiesta, the game. So now whenever I have a birthday, people know, Oh no, Nikki's one of those. She wants to play games. We have to all play games. Yes, that's to be dancing. We're going to be karaoke-ing and my accent will change because I'll go right back
Sharad Lal: I noticed that. Wow.
Nikki Muller: Yeah.
I'll go right back to that great time. And so whenever I land in the Philippines, it's so nostalgic for me when the laughter, I hear the language, I hear the beeping of the jeepney, the smells of Manila, the chaos of beautiful Manila. But I feel the exact same nostalgia when I land in Boston, Massachusetts.
It's a very big part of who I am. I spent my university days there. I met some of the greatest people in my life there, who have really changed me for the better.
When I land in Switzerland, where I spend a lot of my summers with my grandmother, who was my best friend. I just have wonderful memories of the flowers in bloom. I have wonderful memories of being in the kitchen with my grandmother who was a phenomenal cook and could not stop singing. Anytime she would cook, it would take hours because there would be a song on the radio and she'd say in German, That's my favourite song, let's dance.
Or when I'm in England, where my mom currently lives, I feel very English. The majority of my childhood was in England. And I never knew I was biracial. I didn't know the Philippines was another country. I was from Cobham, Surrey. And whenever I land there, the first thing I say to Mom is curry in a pint.
And we'll watch the football. These are all the ways in which I grew up and I honour all these parts, including Singapore, which is the longest I've lived anywhere, 13 years now. Singapore, when people ask me where is home, which is the toughest question you can ask any third culture.
We belong nowhere and everywhere at once. Whilst for us, home means more than just where you currently live. It's your tradition. It's the rituals. But all those traditions and rituals were different for me growing up, home for us, we don't define it as a place. Home transcends geographical boundaries for us, and we find our sense of belonging is much more deeply rooted in people rather than places.
Sharad Lal: Every three years you would pack your bags and go to a new country And what was, I don't know whether there's a mental prep or how did you go about it? You've suddenly landed in, let's say, Boston and you need to live there. How did you go about that?
How Did She Get Accustomed To Living In New Countries?
Nikki Muller: From my experiences, as soon as I land, my priority is to belong, to understand this tribe and to be a part of this tribe.
So a third culture kid can very quickly change gears, have an acute awareness of the social norms and the way people think and the ways people speak, and we become cultural chameleons. I'll give you an example of where I went from.
This is the biggest transition. How do you go from a Catholic all girls school in Cobham Surrey, sheltered England, to going to an international school in the middle of a red light district in Manila, Philippines? That is a culture shock beyond culture shock. And it happened at a time where I was just about to start high school. I didn't realise until this year how hard that was for me, because while most parents will say, Hey, in three months, we're going to have to go, or maybe next year we're going to go.
I didn't have that. I was just having my summer holiday in the Philippines. And I'd lived for seven years in England. That was home. And my mom and dad sat me down and said, yeah, you're not going back. You're starting a new school next week, international school, Manila, the greatest place I've ever been, but a new school next week with boys.
I'd never talked to a boy in my life. What do you mean? I'm going to talk to boys. I have to sit next to boys. And the hardest part was not being able to say goodbye to my friends that I had known. Forever my things, my room, my clothes, everything was there.
And a week later, that's it. My world changed. So imagine high school had already started. It had been a month since they had started school. So here I am, high anxiety, overdrive. How do I fit in? How does it work here in this school? And I remember my first day. I wore a Backstreet Boy t-shirt.
Alright, so I came from England. I watched Top of the Pops. It was very, the pop culture was Spice Girls. It was, very kind of bubble gum, wholesome upbringing, right? And I go to my new school and I've got my Backstreet Boy shirt and my backpack. I used both straps because I thought that made sense and logically it does.
But as soon as I got to that school everyone looked at me and said, You like the Backstreet Boys? Who likes the Backstreet Boys? And I, yeah, I learned quickly that in that place, kids there at that age, they listen to Limp Bizkit, they listen to Kid Rock, Red Hot Chili Peppers, and within 24 hours, I looked different, I sounded different, I wanted to sound like them.
I used to have an English accent that changed within just a few weeks. I started to have punky hair, I had a dog collar kind of thing going on. I wore my backpack now with just one strap and immediately I was one of them. A third culture kid does that all the time, wherever they are. They can switch gears very quickly because it's about belonging and they're very inherently curious about what people are like and what they believe in and how they think.
Sharad Lal: This cultural chameleon is such an interesting concept in 24 hours, you've changed because you know how to fit in, you know how to belong and belonging is what you look for when you, when the roots are taken away, you want to create roots quickly. And that's a huge skill that you can build.
Now, how does this work in terms of relationships? Longer term, deeper relationships with people across the world. How does that work for TCKs?
How Did It Affect Her Relationships?
Nikki Muller: Relationships are very important to a third culture kid because as mentioned, our roots are more in people than it is in places. And what's great about relationships is we can easily foster and cultivate meaningful relationships. But we can easily let them go as well.
Also, the polarity of the upbringing is, that your best friend today is going to leave at some point, or you will, it's going to happen. So we made relationships very quickly, because again, we want to connect, we want to belong and they're genuine, meaningful connections because again, we know that the places are changing and all that we've got right now is the human being.
So change we deal with very quickly, which means changing social groups often is part of it. I think that becomes a lot harder, I think the older you get, especially for high school. I think it's very tough when I see new kids coming in their last year of high school.
I always felt for them. I said this is tough, man. You are, you're about to apply for university. It's the toughest exam that you've ever faced, and now everything is changing. I think for them, it was very difficult, and I always empathised with them. And I think one of those superpowers of TCKs is empathy. Because we know that life is not easy in that way, and growing up in that way, and as soon as we meet someone, we find our tribe and sense of belonging with other TCKs, of course.
The research shows that TCKs over time have developed their own kind of standards of interpersonal behaviour. Meaning I can meet a third culture kid and not ask you where you're from and tell immediately Just by your body language and the way you speak There's like this unspoken visceral thing going on and I can recognize that you've had a similar upbringing Right?
So we have that interpersonal behaviour which then creates what is called the third culture because it's different from where you are now, your host country. That's what the third culture is.
We really want to dive deep and that scares a lot of people. I've been reading about this, and some people find TCK a bit odd, a bit weird because why are they so open? Why do they wear their hearts on their sleeves? Why are they so direct? Why are they so curious? Why are they asking me so many questions about me?
We're open because we need to, we don't know how long we're going to be here. We're seeking that grounding and connection. And we do it through human interpersonal relationships. So we can be intense for a lot of people who prefer to get to know you over time, but we don't have the benefit of time. We don't know how long we've got to be in this moment.
Sharad Lal: It's counterintuitive, but it makes a lot of sense the way you explained it.you have short relationships, but very deep relationships. So somebody could be friends with somebody else for years and not know them deeply like in let's say community countries like India, Philippines. They're big groups and as we see communities play out now in adulthood Is it like the need to still?
There's a novelty element. So do you see yourself, seeking different groups, different tribes? You're in Singapore, you have seven, eight different tribes at a period of time. So your novelty is always quenched. Does that also happen in adulthood?
Finding Novelty in Adulthood
Nikki Muller: Absolutely. I think there are many feelings that transcend from your childhood to adulthood inevitably. And one of them is this kind of restlessness as in, we're always seeking new experiences. And of course, meeting new people is one way to do that. Apart from travel and diversity, I think we thrive in diversity because we are so used to being around people who look and think differently from us.
And finding that common ground, which again, I think is a major superpower, certainly in the workplace. But we don't know how to be around just one type of person because that's not the way we lived. It's not normal. That's not real life to us. Real life has a little bit of absolutely everything. So I do find myself here in Singapore also doing the same thing.
I want to give you a little bit of an example. It's a bit of a strange connection, but it's just come into my mind about the transition to Boston. The transition to America. And I'd seen America in movies. So that's all I knew was movies.
Living there was a totally different story and the language I had at the time that surprised me, and the word I used was I'm surprised, America or the East Coast is quite conservative and I went. It's only now that I've realised what I meant was the word was insular and insular is a very different approach and that's fine.
My first-ever news quiz, I took up broadcast journalism at Emerson College in Boston. My professor's amazing. She said, All right, news quiz on Friday, something like that. What should I do? Third Culture Kid studies global affairs, of course. Go to your Reuters, your Al Jazeera, your BBC, your CNN, get a bit of a broad strokes view of what's going on in the world, because it's global, I thought it was a global affairs news quiz. Sit down. And I don't know the answer to any of it and that was very bad for me because I really studied hard because all the questions were about Austin or the neighbouring towns and what was going on. And I went, I was shocked.
But I was also very surprised that the day before 70 plus thousand people had died in an earthquake in Pakistan. How did that not make the news quiz? I was upset. So I went straight to the teacher.
Another TCK thing to do. We're not afraid to speak up with confidence. I go, prof, please explain what just happened. I am so sorry. I've bombed this quiz, but I don't know what's happening. And she goes, that's a really good question. And this is a very good lesson for you. She said, news is all about markets.
Your market is where you are now. You need to know everything that's happening here. You need to know who's who. You need to know who's mayor and what they're thinking, what policies are in place, what's happening with regulation, the neighbouring town, who the local police commissioner is. You need to know it and you need to know them.
That's news. That's how it works here in the United States. What's happening outside of the United States. She said two things. She goes, Someone else is covering that. And you will notice, she said, Most people don't care about things that don't affect them directly. And I don't think that's necessarily isolated to the United States.
Sharad Lal: You start to realise I can't just, it's not my way or the highway. You've got to assimilate. You've got to be really present and understand what makes people tick here. If you want to have a meaningful connection.
Such an interesting point. And I've seen that in Singapore as well. Quite often people come here and they have their own expat circle. So they may not necessarily know, but as they spend a longer time, they understand what's going on. They get interested even in politics and stuff.
And it's such a good point that if you want to integrate, you need to know what's going on here. Now you touched upon TCKs and work. Let's dig deeper into that. How do TCKs show up at work? What do they bring to work?
What Do TCKs Bring to Work?
Nikki Muller: Oof. Where do I begin? This is spicy, Sharad! I started to think about some of these traits, or some of these kinds of gifts that childhood gives a third culture kid, and that is, you're highly adaptive, you're flexible. You have a sort of wider, broadened worldview. You appreciate diversity, as in you work really effectively with diversity.
You thrive there. And that's where you can actually find the most common ground, as in you have the power to influence. Through diversity. We know that we're working with teams who are not just necessarily working from home, but working from home in different continents. And people think differently. So how are you going to find consensus and therefore take collective action?
It's also some of the traits of what is inherently called a global mindset for a third culture kid. We don't just think global or act global. We are global. It's the world we knew since childhood was how we take a group of people who are completely different and don't agree. And how do we find consensus with empathy, with inclusivity in mind, with respect?
We know how to do this. We translate that into the workplace. Some people will say, yeah, but you have people who may have been born and raised in India or in Germany and they live abroad and they've had that experience.
Yes. The difference is that this kind of global mindset is built over time and the longer you've done it, the more it's in your DNA. HR practitioners have reached out to me and said, you know what? In our interviews, I start asking different questions because I can feel they've had a third-culture kid upbringing, which most TCKs will hide. Most TCKs do not want to sound like they're boasting or they don't want to be different anymore or be seen as others. They want to be exactly what they think you need them to be.
And so HR practitioners have come to me and said, you know what, I'm changing the game now, and it's been so eye-opening when I ask the right questions and interviews, and they start to realise that they feel comfortable now and safe to talk about that upbringing. And then I see that what they bring to the table is so much more than what they were willing to share.
That's my mission. I want TCKs to embrace the fact that it's been different and to see that these, so-called challenges, are strengths and tap into it. Don't be afraid to say, I've had this experience and give an example of it. This is what makes you very valuable in a workplace setting.
Sharad Lal: Empathy becomes such an important skill in the workspace, which comes naturally to them, reading the room, making friends, understanding what are the dynamics in the room. As the world is changing, all types of companies have global teams.
This is going to be a good superpower. it's such a worthy mission that you're on to tell TCKs, Hey guys, this is not something to hide, put it out there because this is the reason why they should hire you, not this is a reason you need to take away.
So congratulations on that worthy mission and wish you all the best.
Nikki Muller: You said it so well. I was wondering if I could quickly add one thing that if you're working for a government organisation or for the UN or something like that. You, used to being in either a combat zone or you're used to being in an area where you have to be mindful of what's going on.
So for me, I didn't realise how big a deal it was . In the coup in the 80s in the Philippines, where I lived under a desk for two weeks, I didn't know what was going on. We were avoiding the stray bullets that were coming through the windows. But, it's I just look at it as, oh, but that was just what happened on that Tuesday.
We approach it differently. Yes, when there's a crisis... It's tough. You get through it. You move on. So I think that's why we can hold a steady course at the end of the day. And so when you see, hey, someone may have grown up in Guatemala or in Chile or DRC or in Sudan or Syria, that's a big deal because that means that during their childhood, where again, they have their hormones, things are changing, their friends are changing, and they're also dealing with the fact that they can't do a lot of the normal things that kids can.
I think the younger you are, when you experience the grit of being kidnapped, Of what the world can really look like, the more prepared you are to handle things that go differently or wrong in a crisis at a workplace.
Sharad Lal: Very nicely, the way you painted it. There are three things which are very related in TCKs and let's dig into that. There's one superpower of moving forward. Related to that, there is a shadow effect of unresolved grief, And third, there's resilience to be able to move forward.
So can you talk about unresolved grief moving forward uniquely for TCKs in adulthood? What should they think about it? And what's the best way to do it?
Unresolved Griefs in TCKs
Nikki Muller: It's a great question. And when I've been looking at unresolved grief through the TCK lens.
It's managing transitions that are hard. Transition is whatever happens in between one milestone to another. And that is a lot of emotions, a lot of psychological impact as well through transitions.
Unresolved grief means that the transition did not have the ideal support. That's why. It's about transition. So sometimes it's a lack of awareness, right? My parents are amazing, but how did they know what was going on with me? It wasn't talked about. No one really talked about it at that time. I didn't know what was going on with me.
I'm a kid. I can't even figure it out for myself. So there's a lack of awareness from both the parents and the kid, but that's different. Now there is something called transition care. There are support systems. Another reason for unresolved grief is this is very important, lack of permission to grief because the transitions are so quick. And sometimes there is no transition, like my situation in England and the Philippines was, it was not a transition. I didn't get on a plane and had time to think about it after all, about 12 hours before my life changed.
It was just, Oh, it's different now. there's a lack of permission to grief, but you don't have the time or your parents or the people around you don't say that it's okay to be sad. A lot of that was, most people, and I bless the parents who go, don't worry. It's going to be fine.
You're going to meet great people. Yes. You're reinforcing the positive things that are going to happen, but let's not discount what is happening now. There is nothing wrong with feeling sad. Now unresolved grief is only a result of not being able to experience every emotion that comes up with the impact.
Unresolved grief is when you haven't had the time to embrace and fully own. Everything that came with it, all the emotions that come with it. Do you know what really blew my mind? I read the other day that the studies out there show an alarming rate of emotional neglect. around third culture kids, students currently. Emotional neglect, meaning one out of every three TCKs, their parents or those around them are not checking in.
They're not seeing what's actually going on. And of course, if the kid has no vocabulary and doesn't think it's okay to express what they're feeling and understand it, of course you're going to have a bigger impact later on in life. There's ways around that to be, because the nuances are important.
What's the difference between sadness, disappointment, anger, and regret? You know that as an adult, but you don't know that as a kid. So the more you ask these questions, the more involved and actively involved you are, be it student, be it neighbour, be it parent, with another TCK, then you can hopefully help that TCK feel seen, heard, and understood, which is all any human being wants is to feel seen, heard, and understood.
And that will mean that hopefully later on in life, Unresolved grief is not so much an issue. They'll know it was challenging, but they won't have to address it in such a big way. If it was a part of the journey, if there was a ritual around it, and if it was accepted as being all right to discuss that change is hard, but it's life.
Sharad Lal: That's so well put.
I'm glad we touched upon parenting there as well, because that was my ulterior purpose. Parenting TCKs. I have two TCK girls that I'm bringing up. Of course, one of the key things you mentioned right now is transition.
That's a key watch out for parents with TCKs to give the space for transition, the support for transitions. You put the statistic that three out of 10 actually are not doing that. So there's room for improvement for parents to know what else should we know? When we're parenting TCK, so they can harness their superpower, but also get the support that they need.
Parenting TCKs
Nikki Muller: I think that's lovely that you said that so that they can harness their superpower whilst getting the support that they need. I think that just being aware. Of the incredible gift that you are giving your kids as in hats off to you because they don't know it yet. But they're so well positioned to take on this big, bad, beautiful world.
Okay. Because of the life that you're giving them. And the education, the opportunities to meet new people that you're giving them. I think one of the ways that I've read is that if you discuss the commonalities and the differences between how you grew up. And the way they're growing up, that stage sets the context, because the more people talk about it, the better, because I know for me, when no one was talking about how I was growing up, I was made to feel that this is bad, or this is different is bad which is why I have to assimilate, I have to maybe not, I have to park that part of me, which in this case, if you don't, as a parent, and go you know what, the way you grew up is different from me, for myself that's true.
If you are highly mobile, a lot of people like to keep something the same at least. So I know for my godson, and his mother, We keep the furniture the same no matter where they lived and everywhere they lived, they added on, a mask from this country or a vase from this country that reminds them of it.
You just have an honest conversation about that. What are you going to miss the most? Okay. You have your favourite snacks or you're going to have, whatever it is and just bring with you. And honour it throughout the journey. And in classroom settings now, it becomes almost a ritual around it, which is a ceremony.
ISKL Kuala Lumpur international school. They're doing this and they've been doing this for a very long time when they have a leaving ceremony, I just went, geez, a leaving ceremony, how brilliant would that have been for me to be able to speak openly with class and classmates, the classmates will say, I'm really going to miss you because, and I'm very excited for your new adventure because.
And they will even give them things like a piece of string to remind them that you are always connected to this place. You keep a string with you to remember KL. These things are emotional, they're impactful. They'll last forever. There are many different ways to keep grounded and belonging and to, I keep using the word honour, to honour everywhere that you've been.
And the impact that those places and people have had. Don't pile it under the rug, the way a lot of TCKs have had to, simply because they didn't have the awareness or support. That's nobody's fault. It just wasn't, it wasn't commonplace to discuss. But that's not an excuse anymore. We have a lot of opportunities now.
I'm so excited for your kids. I'm excited for what they're going to bring to the table, the more awareness they have of how great they're living. And how diverse their upbringing is. It's
Sharad Lal: Pretty awesome. Such such a wonderful message. As you were talking about, I was getting goosebumps about the ceremony and taking some peace and going forward.
Is there anything else that we should talk about related to TCK? Is anything we missed out on?
Empathy in TCKs
Nikki Muller: No, I think we had such a comprehensive overview and I've had such an amazing time, but I guess I want to, maybe I'll finish with empathy because you had touched on empathy earlier.
I'm so happy that my school was in the middle of a red light district. I'm so happy about that. Why? People would say, that's crazy. You've come from the comfort of this beautiful little town. And I went, you know what? That's where you learn empathy. So Manila was great because as a child, I saw and a lot of people who live in developing nations or are from developing nations, they see poverty first hand everywhere.
You cannot escape it. It's just real life. I think it's important to know what's going on. So seeing kids my age selling Sampaguita flowers or selling cigarettes or selling chewing gum. At a young age, that was very impressive for me. I went, Oh my gosh, look at my life, my privileged life. Versus what they have to do.
I loved my upbringing. My TCK upbringing meant I was exposed to really wonderful, safe spaces like Singapore. Which is beautiful, because it gives you the freedom to be able to discover on your own, knowing that you are safe and secure. And then you juxtapose that in a completely different environment, where you can get kidnapped, there could be a bomb, or it's just life is hard.
All of that, I believe, if you put it together, Jeez, that gives you a very decent understanding of what it means to be alive and to be human in the world we live in, the real world we live in.
I love the second point where a lot of the ones growing up in Singapore, let's say, might have some level of privilege, but if you can get a developing country experience out there, that would compliment their reality of the lens with which they look at life.
Sharad Lal: Help them with empathy, which is such a superpower. So I love that point. Thank you for bringing that. This has been such a wonderful conversation, but before we go, I want to go back to the analogy that you had of jump cuts in life.
As you think of those jump cuts, how would you know you've lived a good life? A meaningful life.
How to Know If You've Lived a Good Life?
Nikki Muller: I think it is the diversity in those scenes. If we're using the movie term. The fact that they're all so different. And you know what it is if I look back on my life and it's one heck of an indie film.
One heck of an indie film in different languages and different, in different scenarios and it's, they're completely juxtaposed and you just don't, it's confusing and beautiful at the same time, then that's, that's the only life I know.
Will I continue to live this way? Of course. I am one of those TCKs where the wanderlust and the restlessness will mean the indie film is going to keep going.
And I'm feeling it now. 13 years in Singapore. I'm very happy here and I've loved every minute of it, but my body says it's time. It said it's time for at least four years. So I know that there's another adventure ahead and it's exciting because I'm about to marry a half-Irish, half-Sudanese gentleman.
Sharad Lal: Wow! Congratulations, Niki! That's great news!
I would love to watch that film. And that's such a good analogy to end with. Thank you very much for making time for such an energetic, inspiring, deep conversation. I love talking to you. I wish you all the best. I think this is a very important message. It's not out there as much as it should be.
And I'm so glad you've taken the baton and taken it forward. I wish you all the best. Thank you very much for doing this and all the best for your wedding. Thank you.
Nikki Muller: Thank you, Sharad.
Sharad Lal: Thank you, Nikki, for such an enlightening conversation. For more on Nikki and other references to this conversation, I'll drop a link in the show notes.
Here's an action step. All of us could consider whether we are TCK. Or raising TCK is or not. Let's think about transitions in life. It takes 20 to 30 minutes. Sit in a quiet corner when you have time. And reflect on an important transition in life. It could be in childhood or adulthood. How did that happen?
Did you make enough time or space for it? As Nikki put it. Did you honour each experience? Is there any unresolved grief? How do you deal with this in life? What do you do well? And what can you do better?
Going forward. How can you be more mindful of future transitions? Not only for yourself, but your family and kids as well. All the very best. That's it for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. We will be back with another episode two weeks from now on September 12. It's a special episode. It will be the 50th episode. Hope you join us for that. Till next time, have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye
Nikki Muller: Home means more than just where you currently live. It's your traditions. It's the rituals. Home for us, we don't define as a place. Home transcends geographical boundaries for us, and we find our sense of belonging is much more deeply rooted in people rather than places.
Sharad Lal: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Live a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm Sharad Lal. This is episode 49.
Did you know that 220 million people live in a country different from their passport country? Many of us are raising third-culture kids, Individuals who grew up in a unique way with both gifts and challenges.
Today we delve deep into this fascinating world of third-culture kids. As I sit down with true authority in this field, Nikki Muller. Nikki is not only an expert, but a third culture kid, making her insights all the more valuable.
Work and personal experiences have shaped her Into a Walker and inspiring voice for the TCK community, guiding others to navigate the complexities of their backgrounds.
Nikki's journey began at a young age when she became a star in the entertainment space at just 15, she captured the hearts of many as an MTV host and co-hosted studio Disney. Talents were recognized at the age of 20 receiving a nomination for best entertainment presenter at the prestigious Asian Television Awards.
Her remarkable career includes working with industry legends, Like director Kevin Bright on the hit series Friends. She's also shared the stage with Robert Downey Jr. And Samuel L. Jackson at various events.
And she's even made an appearance in HBO's Westworld. But that's not all. Nikki's passion for theatre led her to be nominated as the best actress for Pangdemonium's Compelling one-woman production Girls and Boys. Beyond the glitz and glamour. Nikki has also contributed her talents to the United Nations. Having worked at the headquarters in New York. In today's conversation. Nikki. And I delve into the intriguing world of third culture kids discussing identity relationships work, and the challenges of raising TCK. Her infectious energy shines through as she shares personal experiences and valuable research on TCKs.
As a parent raising TCK is myself. I must confess I had an ulterior motive for this conversation. To gain insights that will not only enrich my life but the lives of countless others in Singapore and beyond. So let's dive into this fascinating conversation with Nikki Mueller. But before getting to the podcast.
Thank you for your support. We're now listened to in over 120 countries And are in the top 5% of the world. If you haven't already please do consider subscribing Do consider giving us a rating as well Thank you in advance now here's the conversation
Hi Nikki. Good morning. How are you doing this morning?
Nikki Muller: I am bursting with joy, and that is 100% true. I cannot believe I'm on your podcast. Thank you for the opportunity.
Sharad Lal: Thank you very much for making time Nikki and congratulations on the huge success you've had right from the age of 15 today we're going to talk about TCK's third culture kids and before we get into it so that everyone's on the same plane can you help us define what exactly are third culture kids?
What are Third Culture Kids?
Nikki Muller: Third Culture Kids really describes a very enriched childhood, a highly mobile, Global childhood.
Imagine a kid who has spent a significant portion of their childhood, either from day one to the age of 18, travelling from country to country, changing schools, changing environments, changing language, changing friends, changing homes, everything over and over again, during a very trying time of your formative years.
Those are very significant formative years because that's a time where you're still developing your personal and cultural identity, right? And we all know change is hard and there's stress that comes with change and you compound that in your childhood by your environment and all the systems and everything that you know and come to love changes.
But with that is a really incredible experience. A lot of third culture kids would say they grew up living in two worlds, which is that of high anxiety because you're always anticipating disruption, but at the same time, so much excitement and joy because you have this inherent global curiosity.
And what's important to note is that it means you're growing up in countries other than where your parents are from or what your passport says.
A lot of people nowadays might confuse being mixed race, biracial, parents of different backgrounds as being third culture. Third culture has nothing to do with race. It has to do with high mobility during childhood.
Sharad Lal: Thank you for defining that. And the way you were talking about it, the fashion with which you were talking about both the good as well as the challenges, the anxiety as well as the openness that was so exciting to hear.
What got you interested in this topic to go deeper and research about it?
What Got Nikki Interested in the Topic?
Nikki Muller: I would say 2020 changed everything for everyone around the world, right? The onset of the pandemic. I think that was big for me because when the world came to a standstill and I lived alone, I'm an only child and I'm living in Singapore, I've lived here 13 years now. I was alone.
So I was like, what do I do now with my life? Do I stay here? Do I go? And if I go, the only place I can go, I'm allowed to legally go is Switzerland. I'm half Swiss, I'm half Filipino. And I like it, but I don't even really know Switzerland. What am I going to do there?
So I had all these questions of who am I? Who I am is a tough question to ask a third culture kid because if you look at the whole definition of identity and I'll ask you this Sharad, when I say identity, what makes your identity? Do you have, you just throw whatever's top of mind of, what would consider or be an element of what creates identity? What would you say?
Sharad Lal: I think it's very confusing even if you're not a third culture kid. I've grown up somewhere, a small city, then I went to a bigger city, then went to a new country. Am I that person who grew up? Am I this person now?
So I struggle with identity even without being a third culture kid who's grown up in different countries. So I think if you have that complexity on top of that. Identity becomes an extremely difficult question.
Nikki Muller: Yes, you're absolutely right. You hit the nail on the head there. And that's what I was feeling. And so the more I research about identity, especially in childhood, the things that mirror around us, that create and contribute to identity, are a few things. One of them, of course, is your social setting, your school, your friends.
One is your family, or your home, your physical home, and the people that you grew up with. Maybe it's the social groups that you belong to as well, whether it's sports clubs. And sports, we know, is all about belonging. We all cheer for this team. We all belong in this tribe, right? So there's different communities.
And it could be religious communities, too, wherever it is that you worship with your family. All of these elements create community. Now imagine when all of those elements that I just mentioned change over and over again. That is a confusing identity for a kid, And I only started to realise the effects of this in my adulthood.
Because you don't think about it when you're a kid. You don't have time. So your identity becomes collective, meaning you start to pick up nuances and ideas and systems of thinking from the places that you lived amongst the people you lived with over and over again. It becomes a much more global, collective identity. You take elements of it, but you don't have full ownership of any of them.
So for me, I started to look into that and I went, why do I feel this way? Aha, there's something called a third culture kit. It has been researched by sociologists and anthropologists since the late 1950s. I couldn't believe it. There is language now and science and data that describes People like me and it's not, I always say it's not a small pond experience.
There are over 220 million third culture kids out there or people who are highly nomadic. And that's about 10 million more than the population of Brazil. And immigration is really growing. Europe and Asia have the largest number of international immigrants. So we're looking at about 4% of the world's population is highly mobile and it's growing and that's why you see transnational marriages.
So all of these things I started to research and I went, aha, this is great. I'm starting to understand who I am slowly. But to be very honest with you, the more sensitive part of this question is something that's very important that a lot of adults who had a TCK upbringing only start to understand later on is this very real issue of unresolved grief.
There wasn't a lot of time to say goodbye or to understand what was happening. You were just thrown into a new world and you were told, swim. And we're really good at it. We're really adaptable, highly flexible, and extremely resilient, but it came at a price.
And as a child. You go through a pretty complex time, but what's also great is you move on really quickly. We have such a move-forward mentality. We're not so interested in where we came from. We're more interested in where we're going.
the more awareness that you bring to this and the more you can say, hey, the challenges are now my strengths. And I can do a lot of great good in this world as a result. And actually, it's the greatest gift that was given to me.
Sharad Lal: Thank you. So fascinating, Nikki.
And I'd love to dig a little bit into your childhood. Where did you grow up?
Some experiences that you recollect and what impact have they had on you?
Nikki's Childhood
Nikki Muller: Before I had any knowledge of the third culture experience and the data and the research behind it. I used to describe my life as a series of jump cuts in a movie. From one scene to the other, there was no transition.
I don't know if you remember, it was one of those James Bond movies. Halle Berry came out of the ocean and then in the next scene, she completely dried her swimsuit. It was just like that. A third culture kid experience for me was like that. We often bookend our life through countries. Because never shall the twain meet, the worlds and the people in them.
They just seem like isolated moments in time. I'm very excited about my wedding because it'll be the only day in my life where all elements of my highly global incredible world will come together and they'll meet each other and understand who I am as a result of meeting each other. So I'm half Swiss and half Filipino.
I was born in Switzerland three weeks later, immediately on a plane. My parents are like that, when we lived in England and in Hong Kong and the Philippines, United States. Many of them several times over the years. So for me, the experience was very cool because my Christmases were in the Philippines.
And the Filipinos love to party, the fiesta, the game. So now whenever I have a birthday, people know, Oh no, Nikki's one of those. She wants to play games. We have to all play games. Yes, that's to be dancing. We're going to be karaoke-ing and my accent will change because I'll go right back
Sharad Lal: I noticed that. Wow.
Nikki Muller: Yeah.
I'll go right back to that great time. And so whenever I land in the Philippines, it's so nostalgic for me when the laughter, I hear the language, I hear the beeping of the jeepney, the smells of Manila, the chaos of beautiful Manila. But I feel the exact same nostalgia when I land in Boston, Massachusetts.
It's a very big part of who I am. I spent my university days there. I met some of the greatest people in my life there, who have really changed me for the better.
When I land in Switzerland, where I spend a lot of my summers with my grandmother, who was my best friend. I just have wonderful memories of the flowers in bloom. I have wonderful memories of being in the kitchen with my grandmother who was a phenomenal cook and could not stop singing. Anytime she would cook, it would take hours because there would be a song on the radio and she'd say in German, That's my favourite song, let's dance.
Or when I'm in England, where my mom currently lives, I feel very English. The majority of my childhood was in England. And I never knew I was biracial. I didn't know the Philippines was another country. I was from Cobham, Surrey. And whenever I land there, the first thing I say to Mom is curry in a pint.
And we'll watch the football. These are all the ways in which I grew up and I honour all these parts, including Singapore, which is the longest I've lived anywhere, 13 years now. Singapore, when people ask me where is home, which is the toughest question you can ask any third culture.
We belong nowhere and everywhere at once. Whilst for us, home means more than just where you currently live. It's your tradition. It's the rituals. But all those traditions and rituals were different for me growing up, home for us, we don't define it as a place. Home transcends geographical boundaries for us, and we find our sense of belonging is much more deeply rooted in people rather than places.
Sharad Lal: Every three years you would pack your bags and go to a new country And what was, I don't know whether there's a mental prep or how did you go about it? You've suddenly landed in, let's say, Boston and you need to live there. How did you go about that?
How Did She Get Accustomed To Living In New Countries?
Nikki Muller: From my experiences, as soon as I land, my priority is to belong, to understand this tribe and to be a part of this tribe.
So a third culture kid can very quickly change gears, have an acute awareness of the social norms and the way people think and the ways people speak, and we become cultural chameleons. I'll give you an example of where I went from.
This is the biggest transition. How do you go from a Catholic all girls school in Cobham Surrey, sheltered England, to going to an international school in the middle of a red light district in Manila, Philippines? That is a culture shock beyond culture shock. And it happened at a time where I was just about to start high school. I didn't realise until this year how hard that was for me, because while most parents will say, Hey, in three months, we're going to have to go, or maybe next year we're going to go.
I didn't have that. I was just having my summer holiday in the Philippines. And I'd lived for seven years in England. That was home. And my mom and dad sat me down and said, yeah, you're not going back. You're starting a new school next week, international school, Manila, the greatest place I've ever been, but a new school next week with boys.
I'd never talked to a boy in my life. What do you mean? I'm going to talk to boys. I have to sit next to boys. And the hardest part was not being able to say goodbye to my friends that I had known. Forever my things, my room, my clothes, everything was there.
And a week later, that's it. My world changed. So imagine high school had already started. It had been a month since they had started school. So here I am, high anxiety, overdrive. How do I fit in? How does it work here in this school? And I remember my first day. I wore a Backstreet Boy t-shirt.
Alright, so I came from England. I watched Top of the Pops. It was very, the pop culture was Spice Girls. It was, very kind of bubble gum, wholesome upbringing, right? And I go to my new school and I've got my Backstreet Boy shirt and my backpack. I used both straps because I thought that made sense and logically it does.
But as soon as I got to that school everyone looked at me and said, You like the Backstreet Boys? Who likes the Backstreet Boys? And I, yeah, I learned quickly that in that place, kids there at that age, they listen to Limp Bizkit, they listen to Kid Rock, Red Hot Chili Peppers, and within 24 hours, I looked different, I sounded different, I wanted to sound like them.
I used to have an English accent that changed within just a few weeks. I started to have punky hair, I had a dog collar kind of thing going on. I wore my backpack now with just one strap and immediately I was one of them. A third culture kid does that all the time, wherever they are. They can switch gears very quickly because it's about belonging and they're very inherently curious about what people are like and what they believe in and how they think.
Sharad Lal: This cultural chameleon is such an interesting concept in 24 hours, you've changed because you know how to fit in, you know how to belong and belonging is what you look for when you, when the roots are taken away, you want to create roots quickly. And that's a huge skill that you can build.
Now, how does this work in terms of relationships? Longer term, deeper relationships with people across the world. How does that work for TCKs?
How Did It Affect Her Relationships?
Nikki Muller: Relationships are very important to a third culture kid because as mentioned, our roots are more in people than it is in places. And what's great about relationships is we can easily foster and cultivate meaningful relationships. But we can easily let them go as well.
Also, the polarity of the upbringing is, that your best friend today is going to leave at some point, or you will, it's going to happen. So we made relationships very quickly, because again, we want to connect, we want to belong and they're genuine, meaningful connections because again, we know that the places are changing and all that we've got right now is the human being.
So change we deal with very quickly, which means changing social groups often is part of it. I think that becomes a lot harder, I think the older you get, especially for high school. I think it's very tough when I see new kids coming in their last year of high school.
I always felt for them. I said this is tough, man. You are, you're about to apply for university. It's the toughest exam that you've ever faced, and now everything is changing. I think for them, it was very difficult, and I always empathised with them. And I think one of those superpowers of TCKs is empathy. Because we know that life is not easy in that way, and growing up in that way, and as soon as we meet someone, we find our tribe and sense of belonging with other TCKs, of course.
The research shows that TCKs over time have developed their own kind of standards of interpersonal behaviour. Meaning I can meet a third culture kid and not ask you where you're from and tell immediately Just by your body language and the way you speak There's like this unspoken visceral thing going on and I can recognize that you've had a similar upbringing Right?
So we have that interpersonal behaviour which then creates what is called the third culture because it's different from where you are now, your host country. That's what the third culture is.
We really want to dive deep and that scares a lot of people. I've been reading about this, and some people find TCK a bit odd, a bit weird because why are they so open? Why do they wear their hearts on their sleeves? Why are they so direct? Why are they so curious? Why are they asking me so many questions about me?
We're open because we need to, we don't know how long we're going to be here. We're seeking that grounding and connection. And we do it through human interpersonal relationships. So we can be intense for a lot of people who prefer to get to know you over time, but we don't have the benefit of time. We don't know how long we've got to be in this moment.
Sharad Lal: It's counterintuitive, but it makes a lot of sense the way you explained it.you have short relationships, but very deep relationships. So somebody could be friends with somebody else for years and not know them deeply like in let's say community countries like India, Philippines. They're big groups and as we see communities play out now in adulthood Is it like the need to still?
There's a novelty element. So do you see yourself, seeking different groups, different tribes? You're in Singapore, you have seven, eight different tribes at a period of time. So your novelty is always quenched. Does that also happen in adulthood?
Finding Novelty in Adulthood
Nikki Muller: Absolutely. I think there are many feelings that transcend from your childhood to adulthood inevitably. And one of them is this kind of restlessness as in, we're always seeking new experiences. And of course, meeting new people is one way to do that. Apart from travel and diversity, I think we thrive in diversity because we are so used to being around people who look and think differently from us.
And finding that common ground, which again, I think is a major superpower, certainly in the workplace. But we don't know how to be around just one type of person because that's not the way we lived. It's not normal. That's not real life to us. Real life has a little bit of absolutely everything. So I do find myself here in Singapore also doing the same thing.
I want to give you a little bit of an example. It's a bit of a strange connection, but it's just come into my mind about the transition to Boston. The transition to America. And I'd seen America in movies. So that's all I knew was movies.
Living there was a totally different story and the language I had at the time that surprised me, and the word I used was I'm surprised, America or the East Coast is quite conservative and I went. It's only now that I've realised what I meant was the word was insular and insular is a very different approach and that's fine.
My first-ever news quiz, I took up broadcast journalism at Emerson College in Boston. My professor's amazing. She said, All right, news quiz on Friday, something like that. What should I do? Third Culture Kid studies global affairs, of course. Go to your Reuters, your Al Jazeera, your BBC, your CNN, get a bit of a broad strokes view of what's going on in the world, because it's global, I thought it was a global affairs news quiz. Sit down. And I don't know the answer to any of it and that was very bad for me because I really studied hard because all the questions were about Austin or the neighbouring towns and what was going on. And I went, I was shocked.
But I was also very surprised that the day before 70 plus thousand people had died in an earthquake in Pakistan. How did that not make the news quiz? I was upset. So I went straight to the teacher.
Another TCK thing to do. We're not afraid to speak up with confidence. I go, prof, please explain what just happened. I am so sorry. I've bombed this quiz, but I don't know what's happening. And she goes, that's a really good question. And this is a very good lesson for you. She said, news is all about markets.
Your market is where you are now. You need to know everything that's happening here. You need to know who's who. You need to know who's mayor and what they're thinking, what policies are in place, what's happening with regulation, the neighbouring town, who the local police commissioner is. You need to know it and you need to know them.
That's news. That's how it works here in the United States. What's happening outside of the United States. She said two things. She goes, Someone else is covering that. And you will notice, she said, Most people don't care about things that don't affect them directly. And I don't think that's necessarily isolated to the United States.
Sharad Lal: You start to realise I can't just, it's not my way or the highway. You've got to assimilate. You've got to be really present and understand what makes people tick here. If you want to have a meaningful connection.
Such an interesting point. And I've seen that in Singapore as well. Quite often people come here and they have their own expat circle. So they may not necessarily know, but as they spend a longer time, they understand what's going on. They get interested even in politics and stuff.
And it's such a good point that if you want to integrate, you need to know what's going on here. Now you touched upon TCKs and work. Let's dig deeper into that. How do TCKs show up at work? What do they bring to work?
What Do TCKs Bring to Work?
Nikki Muller: Oof. Where do I begin? This is spicy, Sharad! I started to think about some of these traits, or some of these kinds of gifts that childhood gives a third culture kid, and that is, you're highly adaptive, you're flexible. You have a sort of wider, broadened worldview. You appreciate diversity, as in you work really effectively with diversity.
You thrive there. And that's where you can actually find the most common ground, as in you have the power to influence. Through diversity. We know that we're working with teams who are not just necessarily working from home, but working from home in different continents. And people think differently. So how are you going to find consensus and therefore take collective action?
It's also some of the traits of what is inherently called a global mindset for a third culture kid. We don't just think global or act global. We are global. It's the world we knew since childhood was how we take a group of people who are completely different and don't agree. And how do we find consensus with empathy, with inclusivity in mind, with respect?
We know how to do this. We translate that into the workplace. Some people will say, yeah, but you have people who may have been born and raised in India or in Germany and they live abroad and they've had that experience.
Yes. The difference is that this kind of global mindset is built over time and the longer you've done it, the more it's in your DNA. HR practitioners have reached out to me and said, you know what? In our interviews, I start asking different questions because I can feel they've had a third-culture kid upbringing, which most TCKs will hide. Most TCKs do not want to sound like they're boasting or they don't want to be different anymore or be seen as others. They want to be exactly what they think you need them to be.
And so HR practitioners have come to me and said, you know what, I'm changing the game now, and it's been so eye-opening when I ask the right questions and interviews, and they start to realise that they feel comfortable now and safe to talk about that upbringing. And then I see that what they bring to the table is so much more than what they were willing to share.
That's my mission. I want TCKs to embrace the fact that it's been different and to see that these, so-called challenges, are strengths and tap into it. Don't be afraid to say, I've had this experience and give an example of it. This is what makes you very valuable in a workplace setting.
Sharad Lal: Empathy becomes such an important skill in the workspace, which comes naturally to them, reading the room, making friends, understanding what are the dynamics in the room. As the world is changing, all types of companies have global teams.
This is going to be a good superpower. it's such a worthy mission that you're on to tell TCKs, Hey guys, this is not something to hide, put it out there because this is the reason why they should hire you, not this is a reason you need to take away.
So congratulations on that worthy mission and wish you all the best.
Nikki Muller: You said it so well. I was wondering if I could quickly add one thing that if you're working for a government organisation or for the UN or something like that. You, used to being in either a combat zone or you're used to being in an area where you have to be mindful of what's going on.
So for me, I didn't realise how big a deal it was . In the coup in the 80s in the Philippines, where I lived under a desk for two weeks, I didn't know what was going on. We were avoiding the stray bullets that were coming through the windows. But, it's I just look at it as, oh, but that was just what happened on that Tuesday.
We approach it differently. Yes, when there's a crisis... It's tough. You get through it. You move on. So I think that's why we can hold a steady course at the end of the day. And so when you see, hey, someone may have grown up in Guatemala or in Chile or DRC or in Sudan or Syria, that's a big deal because that means that during their childhood, where again, they have their hormones, things are changing, their friends are changing, and they're also dealing with the fact that they can't do a lot of the normal things that kids can.
I think the younger you are, when you experience the grit of being kidnapped, Of what the world can really look like, the more prepared you are to handle things that go differently or wrong in a crisis at a workplace.
Sharad Lal: Very nicely, the way you painted it. There are three things which are very related in TCKs and let's dig into that. There's one superpower of moving forward. Related to that, there is a shadow effect of unresolved grief, And third, there's resilience to be able to move forward.
So can you talk about unresolved grief moving forward uniquely for TCKs in adulthood? What should they think about it? And what's the best way to do it?
Unresolved Griefs in TCKs
Nikki Muller: It's a great question. And when I've been looking at unresolved grief through the TCK lens.
It's managing transitions that are hard. Transition is whatever happens in between one milestone to another. And that is a lot of emotions, a lot of psychological impact as well through transitions.
Unresolved grief means that the transition did not have the ideal support. That's why. It's about transition. So sometimes it's a lack of awareness, right? My parents are amazing, but how did they know what was going on with me? It wasn't talked about. No one really talked about it at that time. I didn't know what was going on with me.
I'm a kid. I can't even figure it out for myself. So there's a lack of awareness from both the parents and the kid, but that's different. Now there is something called transition care. There are support systems. Another reason for unresolved grief is this is very important, lack of permission to grief because the transitions are so quick. And sometimes there is no transition, like my situation in England and the Philippines was, it was not a transition. I didn't get on a plane and had time to think about it after all, about 12 hours before my life changed.
It was just, Oh, it's different now. there's a lack of permission to grief, but you don't have the time or your parents or the people around you don't say that it's okay to be sad. A lot of that was, most people, and I bless the parents who go, don't worry. It's going to be fine.
You're going to meet great people. Yes. You're reinforcing the positive things that are going to happen, but let's not discount what is happening now. There is nothing wrong with feeling sad. Now unresolved grief is only a result of not being able to experience every emotion that comes up with the impact.
Unresolved grief is when you haven't had the time to embrace and fully own. Everything that came with it, all the emotions that come with it. Do you know what really blew my mind? I read the other day that the studies out there show an alarming rate of emotional neglect. around third culture kids, students currently. Emotional neglect, meaning one out of every three TCKs, their parents or those around them are not checking in.
They're not seeing what's actually going on. And of course, if the kid has no vocabulary and doesn't think it's okay to express what they're feeling and understand it, of course you're going to have a bigger impact later on in life. There's ways around that to be, because the nuances are important.
What's the difference between sadness, disappointment, anger, and regret? You know that as an adult, but you don't know that as a kid. So the more you ask these questions, the more involved and actively involved you are, be it student, be it neighbour, be it parent, with another TCK, then you can hopefully help that TCK feel seen, heard, and understood, which is all any human being wants is to feel seen, heard, and understood.
And that will mean that hopefully later on in life, Unresolved grief is not so much an issue. They'll know it was challenging, but they won't have to address it in such a big way. If it was a part of the journey, if there was a ritual around it, and if it was accepted as being all right to discuss that change is hard, but it's life.
Sharad Lal: That's so well put.
I'm glad we touched upon parenting there as well, because that was my ulterior purpose. Parenting TCKs. I have two TCK girls that I'm bringing up. Of course, one of the key things you mentioned right now is transition.
That's a key watch out for parents with TCKs to give the space for transition, the support for transitions. You put the statistic that three out of 10 actually are not doing that. So there's room for improvement for parents to know what else should we know? When we're parenting TCK, so they can harness their superpower, but also get the support that they need.
Parenting TCKs
Nikki Muller: I think that's lovely that you said that so that they can harness their superpower whilst getting the support that they need. I think that just being aware. Of the incredible gift that you are giving your kids as in hats off to you because they don't know it yet. But they're so well positioned to take on this big, bad, beautiful world.
Okay. Because of the life that you're giving them. And the education, the opportunities to meet new people that you're giving them. I think one of the ways that I've read is that if you discuss the commonalities and the differences between how you grew up. And the way they're growing up, that stage sets the context, because the more people talk about it, the better, because I know for me, when no one was talking about how I was growing up, I was made to feel that this is bad, or this is different is bad which is why I have to assimilate, I have to maybe not, I have to park that part of me, which in this case, if you don't, as a parent, and go you know what, the way you grew up is different from me, for myself that's true.
If you are highly mobile, a lot of people like to keep something the same at least. So I know for my godson, and his mother, We keep the furniture the same no matter where they lived and everywhere they lived, they added on, a mask from this country or a vase from this country that reminds them of it.
You just have an honest conversation about that. What are you going to miss the most? Okay. You have your favourite snacks or you're going to have, whatever it is and just bring with you. And honour it throughout the journey. And in classroom settings now, it becomes almost a ritual around it, which is a ceremony.
ISKL Kuala Lumpur international school. They're doing this and they've been doing this for a very long time when they have a leaving ceremony, I just went, geez, a leaving ceremony, how brilliant would that have been for me to be able to speak openly with class and classmates, the classmates will say, I'm really going to miss you because, and I'm very excited for your new adventure because.
And they will even give them things like a piece of string to remind them that you are always connected to this place. You keep a string with you to remember KL. These things are emotional, they're impactful. They'll last forever. There are many different ways to keep grounded and belonging and to, I keep using the word honour, to honour everywhere that you've been.
And the impact that those places and people have had. Don't pile it under the rug, the way a lot of TCKs have had to, simply because they didn't have the awareness or support. That's nobody's fault. It just wasn't, it wasn't commonplace to discuss. But that's not an excuse anymore. We have a lot of opportunities now.
I'm so excited for your kids. I'm excited for what they're going to bring to the table, the more awareness they have of how great they're living. And how diverse their upbringing is. It's
Sharad Lal: Pretty awesome. Such such a wonderful message. As you were talking about, I was getting goosebumps about the ceremony and taking some peace and going forward.
Is there anything else that we should talk about related to TCK? Is anything we missed out on?
Empathy in TCKs
Nikki Muller: No, I think we had such a comprehensive overview and I've had such an amazing time, but I guess I want to, maybe I'll finish with empathy because you had touched on empathy earlier.
I'm so happy that my school was in the middle of a red light district. I'm so happy about that. Why? People would say, that's crazy. You've come from the comfort of this beautiful little town. And I went, you know what? That's where you learn empathy. So Manila was great because as a child, I saw and a lot of people who live in developing nations or are from developing nations, they see poverty first hand everywhere.
You cannot escape it. It's just real life. I think it's important to know what's going on. So seeing kids my age selling Sampaguita flowers or selling cigarettes or selling chewing gum. At a young age, that was very impressive for me. I went, Oh my gosh, look at my life, my privileged life. Versus what they have to do.
I loved my upbringing. My TCK upbringing meant I was exposed to really wonderful, safe spaces like Singapore. Which is beautiful, because it gives you the freedom to be able to discover on your own, knowing that you are safe and secure. And then you juxtapose that in a completely different environment, where you can get kidnapped, there could be a bomb, or it's just life is hard.
All of that, I believe, if you put it together, Jeez, that gives you a very decent understanding of what it means to be alive and to be human in the world we live in, the real world we live in.
I love the second point where a lot of the ones growing up in Singapore, let's say, might have some level of privilege, but if you can get a developing country experience out there, that would compliment their reality of the lens with which they look at life.
Sharad Lal: Help them with empathy, which is such a superpower. So I love that point. Thank you for bringing that. This has been such a wonderful conversation, but before we go, I want to go back to the analogy that you had of jump cuts in life.
As you think of those jump cuts, how would you know you've lived a good life? A meaningful life.
How to Know If You've Lived a Good Life?
Nikki Muller: I think it is the diversity in those scenes. If we're using the movie term. The fact that they're all so different. And you know what it is if I look back on my life and it's one heck of an indie film.
One heck of an indie film in different languages and different, in different scenarios and it's, they're completely juxtaposed and you just don't, it's confusing and beautiful at the same time, then that's, that's the only life I know.
Will I continue to live this way? Of course. I am one of those TCKs where the wanderlust and the restlessness will mean the indie film is going to keep going.
And I'm feeling it now. 13 years in Singapore. I'm very happy here and I've loved every minute of it, but my body says it's time. It said it's time for at least four years. So I know that there's another adventure ahead and it's exciting because I'm about to marry a half-Irish, half-Sudanese gentleman.
Sharad Lal: Wow! Congratulations, Niki! That's great news!
I would love to watch that film. And that's such a good analogy to end with. Thank you very much for making time for such an energetic, inspiring, deep conversation. I love talking to you. I wish you all the best. I think this is a very important message. It's not out there as much as it should be.
And I'm so glad you've taken the baton and taken it forward. I wish you all the best. Thank you very much for doing this and all the best for your wedding. Thank you.
Nikki Muller: Thank you, Sharad.
Sharad Lal: Thank you, Nikki, for such an enlightening conversation. For more on Nikki and other references to this conversation, I'll drop a link in the show notes.
Here's an action step. All of us could consider whether we are TCK. Or raising TCK is or not. Let's think about transitions in life. It takes 20 to 30 minutes. Sit in a quiet corner when you have time. And reflect on an important transition in life. It could be in childhood or adulthood. How did that happen?
Did you make enough time or space for it? As Nikki put it. Did you honour each experience? Is there any unresolved grief? How do you deal with this in life? What do you do well? And what can you do better?
Going forward. How can you be more mindful of future transitions? Not only for yourself, but your family and kids as well. All the very best. That's it for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. We will be back with another episode two weeks from now on September 12. It's a special episode. It will be the 50th episode. Hope you join us for that. Till next time, have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye.