Connect with Nick
Episode Transcript
The transcript is computer generated. There may be errors.
Sharad: Hi everyone, welcome to How to Live, a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host Sharad Lal. This is episode 82. For years I thought drinking alcohol was harmless. A drink with friends, celebration, it was a way to relax, it felt normal. But then I started noticing changes in my body. And the more I read, I realized alcohol may not be as harmless as it seems. That's why I'm excited about today's episode.
We're talking about alcohol, what it does to us, why we rely on it, and how we can cut back on it without losing the fun of socializing.
Our guest today is Nick Jonsson. Nick is the co-founder of EGN Network, a leading peer network for senior leaders. He's a best selling author, keynote speaker, and an executive coach. A few years back, Nick hit rock bottom with alcohol. He then turned his life around, rebuilt his career and now thrives both personally and professionally. In today's episode, Nick shares how alcohol affects us, the deeper issues it masks, and how to drink less while staying connected socially. We also talk about male vulnerability, authenticity, and living a life that truly matters. But before we jump in, thank you for your incredible support. We're in the top three of all podcasts and are listened to in 140 countries.
Now let's get started. Here's the amazing Nick Jonsson.
Sharad: Hi, Nick. Welcome to the How to Live podcast. How are you doing this morning? I'm doing great, Sharad. Thank you so much for the invite. Thank you very much for being here. I know you live in Phuket now, and you travel in and out of Singapore. So good for you to make it face to face so we can talk in front of each other.
Nick Jonsson: Yes, I love to make it face to face as well, so thank you.
Sharad: Nick, you mentioned to me earlier you were going through a difficult time. And that's when you started drinking a lot. And from that point, you had this journey of quitting drinking and being sober. So if you can talk through how that entire journey went through and what you learned from it.
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, sure. So drinking was a pretty big part of my life. It was part of celebration and it was part of growing up in Sweden, then Australia, and then Asia. Business, entertainment, and so on, and drinking culture was part of it. I felt though as I was aging that it was taking a better toll on me, but I did a pretty good job in controlling it.
I was quite strict and many days I would limit it to three beers because I know I'm going to go up and exercise the next day and that was all fine and well. until a couple of years ago when I ended up in some challenges. So when I got issues at work and then at home, I went through a divorce and that's when I stopped losing control basically.
and there were no longer three beers a day. It could end up with six and eight and then the next morning I felt off. On the weekend, it could be even more. And that's when it really started a downward spiral. So that's, what's the beginning of my journey and the fall.
It was only as I hit rock bottom then in 2018 that I decided to seek help for it. And that was the start of my sober journey.
Sharad: Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry to hear about that. difficult episode that you had. And you said, you went down a downward spiral.
But at some stage, you realize this is not working, I need to do something else and ask for help. What made you do that?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, it was a very slow journey. So from 2015 to 18, it spiraled downwards. And so while it perhaps was just a few drinks too much in the beginning, in the end, I even had to have that morning drink most mornings to stabilize myself, which meant that, I had to accept to myself that I had become an alcoholic, and that is very, very difficult in our society because you see people social drinking everywhere, and you feel that you should be able to drink normally, but I had to accept to myself here that I couldn't.
but it was only when I really was at that stage, when I was so sick and tired, that I was sick and tired, I decided to seek professional help for it.
Sharad: That's interesting. You said you were sick and tired of being sick and tired, and that's when you looked at help.
What was the kind of help that you looked for?
Nick Jonsson: I was so secret about it because I didn't want to be exposed also. I was doing everything I could to hide it. I was not ready to admit it to people. but I decided to then mention it to my new coming wife, who I'm married with now, Donna.
I'd shared with her and she then listened with empathy. She brought me to a doctor. After that, we also knew of a common friend who has gone through some difficulties with alcohol before. We walked over to see her in Singapore and she gave me some hope and a few phone numbers, including one of those anonymous 12 step programs.
I called them up and then I started to attend the meetings. I was in a safe space where I could hear and listen from others who'd gone through it before. And with that, I decided to come back for a second meeting, which I did.
as I walked out of that one, I hadn't had a drink. And that's approaching seven years now.
Sharad: congratulations. That is phenomenal. And that's why this program is so powerful.
When you stopped having that drink, how did your health, your life, how you felt, started changing.
Nick Jonsson: There was a lot of fear and insecurities around it because a lot of my life at that stage circled around alcohol. I had turned my networking, business development, and socializing around the bars or wine tastings
So the issue was, what about my social wellbeing and my social health? That was my biggest worry. Will I be isolated? Will I have some friends, but once I came into the world of recovery, I explored a new world with all these people who had a sober living. And it's starting with morning meetings and I start to attend some of the meetings in downtown Singapore at 6.
In the morning, meeting happy people, sober, going out cycling with them, running with them, walking, hiking, and all these kinds of sober activities then took over my life. So instead of being out socializing in the evenings, I shifted it to a life of being up healthy and doing something meaningful in the mornings.
Wow. You suddenly
Sharad: realized there are other parts of the day where you can have fun. It's not just the night. And now you started hanging out with other people.
So what was the community thing? Did you still keep in touch with some people? How did that shift happen?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so it was something that really helped me because many of the people then in the world of recovery had been sober, three months, three years, 30 years even. And that gave me that hope.
And I remember the Football World Cup was happening then, it was 2018, and so after a few months sober it was happening, and I wanted to go out and watch the games, I wanted to be in the bars a couple of guys who'd been sober for a few years longer than me, we would meet up together, we'd go out, watching the games, but not drinking alcohol, and it really helps when you're on a table then with others sober, people who, who also are in the same boat who can understand you.
And that was the first natural shift. And these days though, I can go to any bars and restaurants and hang out like normal, but it was that transition to just get that comfort that it's okay to have a non alcoholic drink in a bar.
Sharad: That's great.
There was a community that came back. That was your anxiety in the beginning, will I be socially isolated? That did not happen. How was your health, your energy levels, your physical well being, once you quit?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so the first couple of weeks can be quite tough.
Difficulty sleeping and so on, and a lot of anxiety normally after about three, four weeks, I started to feel much better. I started to sleep better, eat better, and with that, I started to actually set some goals and dreams and targets for myself.
All the things that I wanted to do before, but many times alcohol would prevent me from doing. I had tried to run some marathons, triathlons and so on before. But it was always, should I go for the race, or should I enjoy the wedding party, or going out with my friends, it was always this dilemma.
Finally now I could just live healthy and free, and with that then I start to get back into the best health of my life, and I'm still feeling like I'm just getting healthier and healthier. The benefits of not drinking have been tremendous for me.
Sharad: Wow. I always thought you were an athlete all your life, looking at you and seeing your story.
So I didn't know you hadn't run marathons before you quit. It started after that. Was that the case or you doubled down on it after you quit?
Nick Jonsson: I did it before, but I doubled down after. I was struggling a little bit before with it, and I can even remember one of the races in 2015, down in Melbourne, Australia, full distance Ironman race.
just a couple of days before this race. I had a party. I'm coming into the race feeling a bit off. I remember swimming in the ocean and about 3 km into the swim start cramping in my legs. And it's quite terrifying when you're in the middle of the ocean.
Those kinds of cramps and the kind of issues I had when I was drinking are not occurring anymore, and also the anxiety of that is not there.
Sharad: That is so cool. Something similar happened when I quit smoking, it took me many years to do that. But one of the things that would happen with smoking, which I didn't know was associated with smoking, was those headaches that I would get.
That suddenly started disappearing and I had more energy to do work and be physical. seeing that reinforcement that you get physically with your emotional friends as well That helps you build momentum and you just kept going and having new goals
Nick Jonsson: Yes, absolutely. And I just keep being on that journey still because I set some healthy goals and being around a healthy community when you're talking about, first it was alcohol, but now it's also addressing nutrition and things like this. I experimented by going vegan for six months and all these kinds of things just to see what does actually the things you put inside your body do to, what's the negative effects, what's the positive effects and like you also, uh, 20 years ago, I stopped smoking and I agree that it made a tremendous impact on my life as well.
Sharad: That's fascinating. So it starts an irreversible journey that I want to get healthier. I only want to put good things into my body. I want to feel fit and strong. And with that, you started experimenting on diet and vegetarianism.
How was that experiment? And what did you learn through it?
Nick Jonsson: I keep playing with all these things. I tried dairy, for example, which is something that I haven't done for a few years now. I played with dairy, without dairy and seeing how I feel and how I'm showing up. And that had a big impact on me.
And interestingly enough, I did one of those intolerance tests, and it showed that I was intolerant to dairy
If I really feel like something that is tasting like dairy, I can get some vegan options. And that's an easy switch to make, for a better and healthier life.
And I tie that back to alcohol then. If we are intolerant. to dairy, alcohol is no different than, because it is almost like, you're pouring some poison into your body. It's not going to be good for you.
So for me, I just accept it. I just accept it like someone who would be, let's say if you're allergic to peanuts. Well, you're not going to go and eat peanuts if you know you're allergic and you might die from it. And that's how I look at alcohol as well these days. I put it in the same category. It's not for me. And I just avoid it. And then it's quite simple.
Sharad: I heard you use the word poison for alcohol so it sits in your mind. That's not at all for me. So I don't need to have it and that makes it easier for you not to have it.
So I find that powerful.
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, because if it's not on the menu and you're not thinking about it, then it's not going to be an issue. And if we look at it from the medical side, if alcohol was invented today, it would be classified as a narcotics. That's what many of the medical experts say.
When I grew up in Sweden, alcohol was socially acceptable. It was everywhere. And I can remember growing up as a young teenager seeing my parents drinking with other adults.
I also saw them smoking and despite them telling me not to smoke and not to drink as a teenage boy growing up, I wanted a taste of that, being an adult. So that's what I did. I started smoking drink I was never told the dangers of the addiction of it, which anyway, I wouldn't have listened to it because
I was looking at what the older generation was doing and what society was putting in front of me.
Sharad: Nick, you just touched upon that when you look at the science, it would not be allowed today. as you started looking into the science of alcohol, connected to the brain, to sleep.
What are some of the things that you found out with your mind opening?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, there's a lot in that. While I'm not a medical professional and a doctor as such, I'm more of a sober coach helping people just like someone wants a healthier lifestyle to look at their relationship with alcohol and perhaps mainly focusing on gray zone drinkers.
But of course you can see it's black and white. The effects alcohol can have on our brain, everything from memory, how it affects our anxiety and depression and is really shrinking the brain in the longer term. And I know that many people are drinking. They say, I had a busy, stressful day at work.
I need to relax. I need to get something off my chest and a drink calms you down. And that was also why I often enjoyed having a drink after work. But the issue is that it's catching up then the next morning so you're getting it doubled back again and so what I learned to do instead is just deal with it and find a safe space or someone to talk with about the issues and if it is stressful at work why is it stressful at work address the root cause rather than trying to take something to reduce that temporarily
Sharad: It's more like you've got stress which comes from a certain source. Alcohol numbs your feelings.
It does not address the stress. So the stress still remains. And maybe for some time you forget about it, but the next day it comes back at twice its intensity. And I've experienced that. Lately I've been checking myself after drinking. The next morning, for some reason, either I'm depressed a little more, or I'm more angry, more anxious and it's always related to the night after alcohol, even though I may have had a good time.
So I love that let's address stress the way it's supposed to be addressed
Nick Jonsson: Yes. And I think also being a typical male, I did not want to bring my work related problems and challenges to my friends. So I met them in the bar, watching some sports, and having a good time together.
And forgetting about the issues at work, what I should have done instead having opened up to my friends and shared about the issues I had and asked them perhaps if they know someone who could help me in solving the problems. Because just suppressing them, and keeping them secret and silent and even worse adding some drag on top of it to reduce the feeling about it is not the right way and that's why I basically have to learn this the hard way and that is ultimately what brought me to my knees.
And I didn't have to lose the job. I didn't have to go through that divorce. The issue is that I was not talking about it, not looking for the solutions. I didn't even go to my boss to express my concerns. I didn't go to my ex wife to express my concerns. No, I basically went out drinking on the feelings.
Then I resigned from the work and I filed for a divorce with my wife.
Sharad: It's almost like you were holding everything in. And with that, you hit your rock bottom,and when you were on your way up, you realized, Your rock bottom wasn't just alcohol.
There were other things that were also involved. Like you were keeping all the stress without discussing it. And then you started saying that when I'm meeting friends, let me have some honest conversations.
So I can be a little more vulnerable and honest. And when you started doing that for the first time with some of your friends, how did they take it? What was that experience like?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, that's a big shift and change for me because I'm an introvert. So without alcohol, I wouldn't be the center of attention.
But with alcohol, I was the center of attention. And I used to go to my local bars and have good friends. And I was always the president of the golf club going up and having the presentation and stuff. But it was with me having a couple of drinks and I loved that kind of setting at the time.
But the vulnerable Nick was never let in there. The authentic myself was not showing up. So that's something that I had to learn in sobriety and really finding these safe spaces where I can be myself. And one of those initiatives, of course, was the 12 step program, which I'm now giving back to. So now I'm there for the people who are going through some challenges right now. I created a men's group also for the men, my male friends, and we have actually logged on once a week for quite some time now.
We call it the men's group where we can share what is going on in our mind. We start each day by sharing our gratitude list, And then, if we have some issues during the week, we can share it, the others are there to support.
And that's my safe space. That's where I will open up if I have something that is happening in my life, rather than suppressing it,
Sharad: I love that. So the center point of being able to share and be vulnerable is to have a safe space. How did you create this group and this safe space and get people into it and get people to actually share and feel safe?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so about one year into my recovery, people started to see that I had transformed and I changed a lot. And people were asking what happened to me. And until then, I kept it pretty secret and silent. I was attending my meetings, I was hitting one year sobriety, and indeed, my life had transformed. And then I started to talk about it.
And I went through In newspapers in Singapore, there was an interview in the straight times, the business times I was on radio and TV, but they kept asking about sobriety in my journey so far. And then I shared that I'd been to this anonymous 12 step program where I got help. And that's when everyone else, but what should I do if I'm not an alcoholic?
What about if I'm just a gray zone drinker or what about if I don't have any addiction problems at all, and I just still need somewhere to speak. Then that formed the idea then of creating these safe spaces and Now I'm a big advocate for mastermind safe spaces and while I mentioned the men's group where we are 17 men having it together I also have one direct lines one on one with my good friends who I also had before in drinking times but I've been opening up being more vulnerable in all my conversations and asking them questions what's going on in their life for them to open up so we're building much deeper relationships.
Sharad: Wow. This is such incredible work.
You had friends you would drink with. Now you're evolving that relationship with many of them into a one on one deeper relationship versus just going out drinking and having fun.
How did that transition happen with some of your close friends?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah. And again, if I'm reflecting back to the 12 step programs, people typically say that you come for your drinking and you stay for your thinking.
And that means that, we come in perhaps because we think we have a drinking problem, but many times it is, we have a thinking problem. We've been keeping things internally. We have not voiced the issues, the challenges.
write them down on a piece of paper and see who can I take this issue with? Who can I discuss this problem with?
I do an audit every night of my day, thinking through the whole day, is there something on my mind? Is there something else that I said today? Did I upset someone? Did I send an email or a message to someone that isn't quite right?
Do I have any feelings about something? And then before I go to bed, I make those amends, And if we do that with all our relationships, and we make sure that we don't have any resentments about people, then there is no need for a drink.
And just to say as well that once I do that now on a daily basis, in recovery I learn to go through my whole life and make amends for everything that happened from my childhood.
So I went back to my friends from 40 years ago. Some of my earliest memories of things I might have said as a young child to someone and made amends for them to set everything right.
Sharad: this whole habit of removing everything before you sleep, so then you don't need alcohol, you don't even need sleeping pills, that's the best way to sleep.
How do you do that? Is there a time you have for it? Is there, you sit with a notepad and do that, so that, how can people do something like this?
Nick Jonsson: Yes, and it's actually the first chapter of my book, Executive Loneliness, which I wrote during this time in my early sobriety as well, and I created a checklist there, and it's really to document it,
In early recovery, I was asked basically to get a spreadsheet out and write everything down and document it and then start addressing it. And while it sounds like a big task, it's about just getting started.
Because if we want to talk about sobriety, And the worst thing someone can do is to stop cold turkey or someone is Saying, i'm gonna take a month off but then perhaps they're white knuckling it because the issues are still there, that, according to me, is not the way to live a sober life.
Then that just means you're going to suffer.
Sharad: So if someone's looking at All right, I'm drinking too much. I want to get a little sober. One of the things you said, don't go cold turkey because it's going to come back. What are the ways in which people can get started?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah. for someone who's looking at a bit of sobriety for themselves, for health reasons, which is quite popular, just like someone wants to go vegan, someone wants to exercise. I would say, do it hand in hand addressing other parts of your life.
the relationships we have, especially because those would be the ones that we are drinking on. We need to remove the pain points around that and fix those relationships both at work, but also at home and our family and with our friends and set things right.
And if we do that in tandem, then remaining sober is not an issue. What I learned in the world of recovery, the number one reason for a relapse in recovery is a fight with the husband or the spouse. That's when people pick up a drink.
So if we have an issue in a relationship and we're trying to stay sober, that's going to be quite difficult.
Sharad: I love that and I'm going to repeat it Nick so that people can get it.it is a holistic approach.
So look at what's going on in your life in terms of relationships, maybe there's work pressure, maybe there's relationship pressure, there's other things. How can you do it all in tandem? And when you do all in tandem, the chances of you achieving your goal and keeping it sustainable is a lot higher. So it's a full audit because of which you proceed.
Is there any communication you need to do to your spouse, your friends, that you're doing it so they support you? How does that work?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so it depends, of course, at what level someone is. you want a bit of sobriety for health reasons, then that's one thing. You can set some goals.
And I'm a sober coach myself as well, so I'm working with people on the holistic view there, the life coaching and also helping them set some goals around sobriety. And that is, yes, put a date, you're going to try to be sober for a month, is it three months, what's your target, what's your goal, but then really also work on a plan.
And as you said, also, we need to send, socialize it to the people around us, some friends, and also really be ready for it. And think of what will happen if I am at that wedding, what am I going to say? And if you come, To a wedding, for example, where perhaps people are expected to drink, at least in the Western world,
What are you going to say if someone asks you? If you come unprepared for that, there's a big chance that you will maybe make a mistake and then you pick up a drink without realizing it.
Sharad: One of the other things Nick, I noticed was during this process, you had a very deep transformation where you said you went back to people even 40 years back.
where you may have heard them and you've gone to try and make amends. Were there any other people, experts, courses that you went through which made this transformation so deep and made you want to make so many amends?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, I picked up as many books I could, audio books and so on around alcohol, sobriety,
But also I started to see, therapist, psychologist. I was very fascinated about it. I wanted to absorb everything around it, but I think it's the 12 step program that had the biggest impact because there were so many people who lived and breathed sobriety then. and one of the steps in the 12 step program is this of making amends and cleaning up your relationships, because they know that's when people have a relapse.
And in my book also, which is the Executive Loneliness book, I actually wrote the 12 steps revised into five steps. So for someone who's not an alcoholic, I have removed the steps with the addiction of the alcohol and made it a five step process for anyone who wants to heal themselves and their relationships.
Sharad: Ah, I would love to read that.
Part 2
---
Sharad: Nick, as an outsider, one of the things that I've noticed is there's this huge trend now of people moving away from alcohol. So there's no alcoholic beers, there are bars without alcohol. What have you seen from a cultural shift, especially over the last two, three years?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, you're right, Jared. It's indeed a big move in that direction, which I'm pleased to see, because it used to be that once you stopped alcohol, people saw it like you're removing something from your life and people almost asked, what's wrong with that person?
And that creates a lot of stigma for someone who wants to moderate or reduce or even stop the alcohol consumption. But yes, you're right. It has changed. It's almost like the Vegetarian or vegan movement that people are looking at a healthier lifestyle in alcohol than being a poison.
and I'm really happy to see around the world that there's more non-alcoholic alternatives. You have sober bars, most bars have no mocktails, and you also have a lot of beers, even Guinness now serving a zero alcohol beer. I was told though in the 12 step programs that non alcoholic drinks are for non alcoholics, and we were recommended not to drink them, but everyone can make up their own mind, and
If I'm eating out the pizza and so on I love a beer and I then go for non alcoholic beer. In that sense I was a beer lover before and I'm a beer lover now, but I just don't take the alcohol with it.
Sharad: One of the things I would notice earlier is that a lot of the mocktails would be sweet. So I didn't want to have sweet substitutes, but now there are things like, seed lip, and seed lip with tonic water is just so refreshing. It has all those botanical flavors in it and it's not necessarily sweet, but it gives you a good kind of fizz and makes you feel good.
So there's a lot more available that you can be sitting with your friends who are drinking, no judgments, and you could have
Nick Jonsson: what you want to have. Yes, absolutely. And it's about that inclusion, because we still need a place to go and socialize and hang out and Too many times in the past I think alcohol was at the center of it and it shouldn't be at the center of it because if you have a group of people hanging out with or without alcohol it's always going to be a bit tense the first few minutes and I think we have ingrained in us that we need a few drinks to get going but actually if you see people hanging out sober also after 5 10 minutes they are quite warmed up and I see that in the 12 step recovery meetings even showing up at 6 30 in the morning.
20-30 people around the table over a coffee. After a few minutes the conversations are warm. We are laughing. We are joking. We're having a good time. It's just that first moment when you're walking into a room of strangers that tends to be a bit cold and chill.
Sharad: That's so interesting. Alcohol helps in those icebreaker moments but knowing that you can find other ways to break the ice because in five minutes you'll be back into laughing and having conversation.
That's an interesting insight.
Nick Jonsson: I think that's the one big misperception that we think we need alcohol to socialize which, I'm a firm believer that that's not true.
Sharad: Thank you, Nick. We had such a wonderful conversation. We've covered so many areas. What's the bottom line advice that you'd like to leave someone with who's looking at drinking a little less and slowly moving towards being sober?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so the advice there would be for someone who perhaps is a grey zone drinker, someone who's questioning themself and alcohol. to look at it at the holistic view really question. Why am I drinking? Why do I need that drink to go to bed? Is it like a sleeping pill?
Do I need that glass of whiskey to fall asleep or what is it really? And address that holistically that would be my first recommendation and If there's anyone who's listening who has a major issue, someone who's clinically dependent, or perhaps if you have a family or friend or a colleague who's clinically dependent, then support to get help.
As I mentioned today, there is a 12 step program, which doesn't cost money. There's a whole world, all around the world in sobriety. And in Singapore by itself, it's about 20, 30 meetings a week.
Sharad: That is such a wonderful service, Nick.
Thank you very much for sharing your time with us, sharing your wisdom with us. I'm sure many people would want to work with you. We're going to have your details on the show notes, and people can contact Nick. Even if you're hesitant to work right now, you can look at all the content he's putting out.
There's so much useful stuff where all of us are going to benefit. So very much, Nick. Sharan. Thank you, Nick, for such an inspirational conversation. For more on Nick, please check the show notes. Here's something all of us could try.
Let's get curious about our alcohol habits. We don't need to quit, nor do we need to judge ourselves, but let's try and understand it. When do we drink? Why do we drink?
What does it do to us at that moment?
Then the next day. How Does our body feel? Our mind? Our energy? What impact does it have on our sleep?
What can we learn about ourselves? And is there any small little change that we'd like to make?
Best of luck for this inquiry. I hope you enjoyed this episode. The next one will drop two weeks from now on December 17th.
Do join us for that. Till next time, have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye.
Sharad: Hi everyone, welcome to How to Live, a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host Sharad Lal. This is episode 82. For years I thought drinking alcohol was harmless. A drink with friends, celebration, it was a way to relax, it felt normal. But then I started noticing changes in my body. And the more I read, I realized alcohol may not be as harmless as it seems. That's why I'm excited about today's episode.
We're talking about alcohol, what it does to us, why we rely on it, and how we can cut back on it without losing the fun of socializing.
Our guest today is Nick Jonsson. Nick is the co-founder of EGN Network, a leading peer network for senior leaders. He's a best selling author, keynote speaker, and an executive coach. A few years back, Nick hit rock bottom with alcohol. He then turned his life around, rebuilt his career and now thrives both personally and professionally. In today's episode, Nick shares how alcohol affects us, the deeper issues it masks, and how to drink less while staying connected socially. We also talk about male vulnerability, authenticity, and living a life that truly matters. But before we jump in, thank you for your incredible support. We're in the top three of all podcasts and are listened to in 140 countries.
Now let's get started. Here's the amazing Nick Jonsson.
Sharad: Hi, Nick. Welcome to the How to Live podcast. How are you doing this morning? I'm doing great, Sharad. Thank you so much for the invite. Thank you very much for being here. I know you live in Phuket now, and you travel in and out of Singapore. So good for you to make it face to face so we can talk in front of each other.
Nick Jonsson: Yes, I love to make it face to face as well, so thank you.
Sharad: Nick, you mentioned to me earlier you were going through a difficult time. And that's when you started drinking a lot. And from that point, you had this journey of quitting drinking and being sober. So if you can talk through how that entire journey went through and what you learned from it.
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, sure. So drinking was a pretty big part of my life. It was part of celebration and it was part of growing up in Sweden, then Australia, and then Asia. Business, entertainment, and so on, and drinking culture was part of it. I felt though as I was aging that it was taking a better toll on me, but I did a pretty good job in controlling it.
I was quite strict and many days I would limit it to three beers because I know I'm going to go up and exercise the next day and that was all fine and well. until a couple of years ago when I ended up in some challenges. So when I got issues at work and then at home, I went through a divorce and that's when I stopped losing control basically.
and there were no longer three beers a day. It could end up with six and eight and then the next morning I felt off. On the weekend, it could be even more. And that's when it really started a downward spiral. So that's, what's the beginning of my journey and the fall.
It was only as I hit rock bottom then in 2018 that I decided to seek help for it. And that was the start of my sober journey.
Sharad: Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry to hear about that. difficult episode that you had. And you said, you went down a downward spiral.
But at some stage, you realize this is not working, I need to do something else and ask for help. What made you do that?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, it was a very slow journey. So from 2015 to 18, it spiraled downwards. And so while it perhaps was just a few drinks too much in the beginning, in the end, I even had to have that morning drink most mornings to stabilize myself, which meant that, I had to accept to myself that I had become an alcoholic, and that is very, very difficult in our society because you see people social drinking everywhere, and you feel that you should be able to drink normally, but I had to accept to myself here that I couldn't.
but it was only when I really was at that stage, when I was so sick and tired, that I was sick and tired, I decided to seek professional help for it.
Sharad: That's interesting. You said you were sick and tired of being sick and tired, and that's when you looked at help.
What was the kind of help that you looked for?
Nick Jonsson: I was so secret about it because I didn't want to be exposed also. I was doing everything I could to hide it. I was not ready to admit it to people. but I decided to then mention it to my new coming wife, who I'm married with now, Donna.
I'd shared with her and she then listened with empathy. She brought me to a doctor. After that, we also knew of a common friend who has gone through some difficulties with alcohol before. We walked over to see her in Singapore and she gave me some hope and a few phone numbers, including one of those anonymous 12 step programs.
I called them up and then I started to attend the meetings. I was in a safe space where I could hear and listen from others who'd gone through it before. And with that, I decided to come back for a second meeting, which I did.
as I walked out of that one, I hadn't had a drink. And that's approaching seven years now.
Sharad: congratulations. That is phenomenal. And that's why this program is so powerful.
When you stopped having that drink, how did your health, your life, how you felt, started changing.
Nick Jonsson: There was a lot of fear and insecurities around it because a lot of my life at that stage circled around alcohol. I had turned my networking, business development, and socializing around the bars or wine tastings
So the issue was, what about my social wellbeing and my social health? That was my biggest worry. Will I be isolated? Will I have some friends, but once I came into the world of recovery, I explored a new world with all these people who had a sober living. And it's starting with morning meetings and I start to attend some of the meetings in downtown Singapore at 6.
In the morning, meeting happy people, sober, going out cycling with them, running with them, walking, hiking, and all these kinds of sober activities then took over my life. So instead of being out socializing in the evenings, I shifted it to a life of being up healthy and doing something meaningful in the mornings.
Wow. You suddenly
Sharad: realized there are other parts of the day where you can have fun. It's not just the night. And now you started hanging out with other people.
So what was the community thing? Did you still keep in touch with some people? How did that shift happen?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so it was something that really helped me because many of the people then in the world of recovery had been sober, three months, three years, 30 years even. And that gave me that hope.
And I remember the Football World Cup was happening then, it was 2018, and so after a few months sober it was happening, and I wanted to go out and watch the games, I wanted to be in the bars a couple of guys who'd been sober for a few years longer than me, we would meet up together, we'd go out, watching the games, but not drinking alcohol, and it really helps when you're on a table then with others sober, people who, who also are in the same boat who can understand you.
And that was the first natural shift. And these days though, I can go to any bars and restaurants and hang out like normal, but it was that transition to just get that comfort that it's okay to have a non alcoholic drink in a bar.
Sharad: That's great.
There was a community that came back. That was your anxiety in the beginning, will I be socially isolated? That did not happen. How was your health, your energy levels, your physical well being, once you quit?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so the first couple of weeks can be quite tough.
Difficulty sleeping and so on, and a lot of anxiety normally after about three, four weeks, I started to feel much better. I started to sleep better, eat better, and with that, I started to actually set some goals and dreams and targets for myself.
All the things that I wanted to do before, but many times alcohol would prevent me from doing. I had tried to run some marathons, triathlons and so on before. But it was always, should I go for the race, or should I enjoy the wedding party, or going out with my friends, it was always this dilemma.
Finally now I could just live healthy and free, and with that then I start to get back into the best health of my life, and I'm still feeling like I'm just getting healthier and healthier. The benefits of not drinking have been tremendous for me.
Sharad: Wow. I always thought you were an athlete all your life, looking at you and seeing your story.
So I didn't know you hadn't run marathons before you quit. It started after that. Was that the case or you doubled down on it after you quit?
Nick Jonsson: I did it before, but I doubled down after. I was struggling a little bit before with it, and I can even remember one of the races in 2015, down in Melbourne, Australia, full distance Ironman race.
just a couple of days before this race. I had a party. I'm coming into the race feeling a bit off. I remember swimming in the ocean and about 3 km into the swim start cramping in my legs. And it's quite terrifying when you're in the middle of the ocean.
Those kinds of cramps and the kind of issues I had when I was drinking are not occurring anymore, and also the anxiety of that is not there.
Sharad: That is so cool. Something similar happened when I quit smoking, it took me many years to do that. But one of the things that would happen with smoking, which I didn't know was associated with smoking, was those headaches that I would get.
That suddenly started disappearing and I had more energy to do work and be physical. seeing that reinforcement that you get physically with your emotional friends as well That helps you build momentum and you just kept going and having new goals
Nick Jonsson: Yes, absolutely. And I just keep being on that journey still because I set some healthy goals and being around a healthy community when you're talking about, first it was alcohol, but now it's also addressing nutrition and things like this. I experimented by going vegan for six months and all these kinds of things just to see what does actually the things you put inside your body do to, what's the negative effects, what's the positive effects and like you also, uh, 20 years ago, I stopped smoking and I agree that it made a tremendous impact on my life as well.
Sharad: That's fascinating. So it starts an irreversible journey that I want to get healthier. I only want to put good things into my body. I want to feel fit and strong. And with that, you started experimenting on diet and vegetarianism.
How was that experiment? And what did you learn through it?
Nick Jonsson: I keep playing with all these things. I tried dairy, for example, which is something that I haven't done for a few years now. I played with dairy, without dairy and seeing how I feel and how I'm showing up. And that had a big impact on me.
And interestingly enough, I did one of those intolerance tests, and it showed that I was intolerant to dairy
If I really feel like something that is tasting like dairy, I can get some vegan options. And that's an easy switch to make, for a better and healthier life.
And I tie that back to alcohol then. If we are intolerant. to dairy, alcohol is no different than, because it is almost like, you're pouring some poison into your body. It's not going to be good for you.
So for me, I just accept it. I just accept it like someone who would be, let's say if you're allergic to peanuts. Well, you're not going to go and eat peanuts if you know you're allergic and you might die from it. And that's how I look at alcohol as well these days. I put it in the same category. It's not for me. And I just avoid it. And then it's quite simple.
Sharad: I heard you use the word poison for alcohol so it sits in your mind. That's not at all for me. So I don't need to have it and that makes it easier for you not to have it.
So I find that powerful.
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, because if it's not on the menu and you're not thinking about it, then it's not going to be an issue. And if we look at it from the medical side, if alcohol was invented today, it would be classified as a narcotics. That's what many of the medical experts say.
When I grew up in Sweden, alcohol was socially acceptable. It was everywhere. And I can remember growing up as a young teenager seeing my parents drinking with other adults.
I also saw them smoking and despite them telling me not to smoke and not to drink as a teenage boy growing up, I wanted a taste of that, being an adult. So that's what I did. I started smoking drink I was never told the dangers of the addiction of it, which anyway, I wouldn't have listened to it because
I was looking at what the older generation was doing and what society was putting in front of me.
Sharad: Nick, you just touched upon that when you look at the science, it would not be allowed today. as you started looking into the science of alcohol, connected to the brain, to sleep.
What are some of the things that you found out with your mind opening?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, there's a lot in that. While I'm not a medical professional and a doctor as such, I'm more of a sober coach helping people just like someone wants a healthier lifestyle to look at their relationship with alcohol and perhaps mainly focusing on gray zone drinkers.
But of course you can see it's black and white. The effects alcohol can have on our brain, everything from memory, how it affects our anxiety and depression and is really shrinking the brain in the longer term. And I know that many people are drinking. They say, I had a busy, stressful day at work.
I need to relax. I need to get something off my chest and a drink calms you down. And that was also why I often enjoyed having a drink after work. But the issue is that it's catching up then the next morning so you're getting it doubled back again and so what I learned to do instead is just deal with it and find a safe space or someone to talk with about the issues and if it is stressful at work why is it stressful at work address the root cause rather than trying to take something to reduce that temporarily
Sharad: It's more like you've got stress which comes from a certain source. Alcohol numbs your feelings.
It does not address the stress. So the stress still remains. And maybe for some time you forget about it, but the next day it comes back at twice its intensity. And I've experienced that. Lately I've been checking myself after drinking. The next morning, for some reason, either I'm depressed a little more, or I'm more angry, more anxious and it's always related to the night after alcohol, even though I may have had a good time.
So I love that let's address stress the way it's supposed to be addressed
Nick Jonsson: Yes. And I think also being a typical male, I did not want to bring my work related problems and challenges to my friends. So I met them in the bar, watching some sports, and having a good time together.
And forgetting about the issues at work, what I should have done instead having opened up to my friends and shared about the issues I had and asked them perhaps if they know someone who could help me in solving the problems. Because just suppressing them, and keeping them secret and silent and even worse adding some drag on top of it to reduce the feeling about it is not the right way and that's why I basically have to learn this the hard way and that is ultimately what brought me to my knees.
And I didn't have to lose the job. I didn't have to go through that divorce. The issue is that I was not talking about it, not looking for the solutions. I didn't even go to my boss to express my concerns. I didn't go to my ex wife to express my concerns. No, I basically went out drinking on the feelings.
Then I resigned from the work and I filed for a divorce with my wife.
Sharad: It's almost like you were holding everything in. And with that, you hit your rock bottom,and when you were on your way up, you realized, Your rock bottom wasn't just alcohol.
There were other things that were also involved. Like you were keeping all the stress without discussing it. And then you started saying that when I'm meeting friends, let me have some honest conversations.
So I can be a little more vulnerable and honest. And when you started doing that for the first time with some of your friends, how did they take it? What was that experience like?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, that's a big shift and change for me because I'm an introvert. So without alcohol, I wouldn't be the center of attention.
But with alcohol, I was the center of attention. And I used to go to my local bars and have good friends. And I was always the president of the golf club going up and having the presentation and stuff. But it was with me having a couple of drinks and I loved that kind of setting at the time.
But the vulnerable Nick was never let in there. The authentic myself was not showing up. So that's something that I had to learn in sobriety and really finding these safe spaces where I can be myself. And one of those initiatives, of course, was the 12 step program, which I'm now giving back to. So now I'm there for the people who are going through some challenges right now. I created a men's group also for the men, my male friends, and we have actually logged on once a week for quite some time now.
We call it the men's group where we can share what is going on in our mind. We start each day by sharing our gratitude list, And then, if we have some issues during the week, we can share it, the others are there to support.
And that's my safe space. That's where I will open up if I have something that is happening in my life, rather than suppressing it,
Sharad: I love that. So the center point of being able to share and be vulnerable is to have a safe space. How did you create this group and this safe space and get people into it and get people to actually share and feel safe?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so about one year into my recovery, people started to see that I had transformed and I changed a lot. And people were asking what happened to me. And until then, I kept it pretty secret and silent. I was attending my meetings, I was hitting one year sobriety, and indeed, my life had transformed. And then I started to talk about it.
And I went through In newspapers in Singapore, there was an interview in the straight times, the business times I was on radio and TV, but they kept asking about sobriety in my journey so far. And then I shared that I'd been to this anonymous 12 step program where I got help. And that's when everyone else, but what should I do if I'm not an alcoholic?
What about if I'm just a gray zone drinker or what about if I don't have any addiction problems at all, and I just still need somewhere to speak. Then that formed the idea then of creating these safe spaces and Now I'm a big advocate for mastermind safe spaces and while I mentioned the men's group where we are 17 men having it together I also have one direct lines one on one with my good friends who I also had before in drinking times but I've been opening up being more vulnerable in all my conversations and asking them questions what's going on in their life for them to open up so we're building much deeper relationships.
Sharad: Wow. This is such incredible work.
You had friends you would drink with. Now you're evolving that relationship with many of them into a one on one deeper relationship versus just going out drinking and having fun.
How did that transition happen with some of your close friends?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah. And again, if I'm reflecting back to the 12 step programs, people typically say that you come for your drinking and you stay for your thinking.
And that means that, we come in perhaps because we think we have a drinking problem, but many times it is, we have a thinking problem. We've been keeping things internally. We have not voiced the issues, the challenges.
write them down on a piece of paper and see who can I take this issue with? Who can I discuss this problem with?
I do an audit every night of my day, thinking through the whole day, is there something on my mind? Is there something else that I said today? Did I upset someone? Did I send an email or a message to someone that isn't quite right?
Do I have any feelings about something? And then before I go to bed, I make those amends, And if we do that with all our relationships, and we make sure that we don't have any resentments about people, then there is no need for a drink.
And just to say as well that once I do that now on a daily basis, in recovery I learn to go through my whole life and make amends for everything that happened from my childhood.
So I went back to my friends from 40 years ago. Some of my earliest memories of things I might have said as a young child to someone and made amends for them to set everything right.
Sharad: this whole habit of removing everything before you sleep, so then you don't need alcohol, you don't even need sleeping pills, that's the best way to sleep.
How do you do that? Is there a time you have for it? Is there, you sit with a notepad and do that, so that, how can people do something like this?
Nick Jonsson: Yes, and it's actually the first chapter of my book, Executive Loneliness, which I wrote during this time in my early sobriety as well, and I created a checklist there, and it's really to document it,
In early recovery, I was asked basically to get a spreadsheet out and write everything down and document it and then start addressing it. And while it sounds like a big task, it's about just getting started.
Because if we want to talk about sobriety, And the worst thing someone can do is to stop cold turkey or someone is Saying, i'm gonna take a month off but then perhaps they're white knuckling it because the issues are still there, that, according to me, is not the way to live a sober life.
Then that just means you're going to suffer.
Sharad: So if someone's looking at All right, I'm drinking too much. I want to get a little sober. One of the things you said, don't go cold turkey because it's going to come back. What are the ways in which people can get started?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah. for someone who's looking at a bit of sobriety for themselves, for health reasons, which is quite popular, just like someone wants to go vegan, someone wants to exercise. I would say, do it hand in hand addressing other parts of your life.
the relationships we have, especially because those would be the ones that we are drinking on. We need to remove the pain points around that and fix those relationships both at work, but also at home and our family and with our friends and set things right.
And if we do that in tandem, then remaining sober is not an issue. What I learned in the world of recovery, the number one reason for a relapse in recovery is a fight with the husband or the spouse. That's when people pick up a drink.
So if we have an issue in a relationship and we're trying to stay sober, that's going to be quite difficult.
Sharad: I love that and I'm going to repeat it Nick so that people can get it.it is a holistic approach.
So look at what's going on in your life in terms of relationships, maybe there's work pressure, maybe there's relationship pressure, there's other things. How can you do it all in tandem? And when you do all in tandem, the chances of you achieving your goal and keeping it sustainable is a lot higher. So it's a full audit because of which you proceed.
Is there any communication you need to do to your spouse, your friends, that you're doing it so they support you? How does that work?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so it depends, of course, at what level someone is. you want a bit of sobriety for health reasons, then that's one thing. You can set some goals.
And I'm a sober coach myself as well, so I'm working with people on the holistic view there, the life coaching and also helping them set some goals around sobriety. And that is, yes, put a date, you're going to try to be sober for a month, is it three months, what's your target, what's your goal, but then really also work on a plan.
And as you said, also, we need to send, socialize it to the people around us, some friends, and also really be ready for it. And think of what will happen if I am at that wedding, what am I going to say? And if you come, To a wedding, for example, where perhaps people are expected to drink, at least in the Western world,
What are you going to say if someone asks you? If you come unprepared for that, there's a big chance that you will maybe make a mistake and then you pick up a drink without realizing it.
Sharad: One of the other things Nick, I noticed was during this process, you had a very deep transformation where you said you went back to people even 40 years back.
where you may have heard them and you've gone to try and make amends. Were there any other people, experts, courses that you went through which made this transformation so deep and made you want to make so many amends?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, I picked up as many books I could, audio books and so on around alcohol, sobriety,
But also I started to see, therapist, psychologist. I was very fascinated about it. I wanted to absorb everything around it, but I think it's the 12 step program that had the biggest impact because there were so many people who lived and breathed sobriety then. and one of the steps in the 12 step program is this of making amends and cleaning up your relationships, because they know that's when people have a relapse.
And in my book also, which is the Executive Loneliness book, I actually wrote the 12 steps revised into five steps. So for someone who's not an alcoholic, I have removed the steps with the addiction of the alcohol and made it a five step process for anyone who wants to heal themselves and their relationships.
Sharad: Ah, I would love to read that.
Part 2
---
Sharad: Nick, as an outsider, one of the things that I've noticed is there's this huge trend now of people moving away from alcohol. So there's no alcoholic beers, there are bars without alcohol. What have you seen from a cultural shift, especially over the last two, three years?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, you're right, Jared. It's indeed a big move in that direction, which I'm pleased to see, because it used to be that once you stopped alcohol, people saw it like you're removing something from your life and people almost asked, what's wrong with that person?
And that creates a lot of stigma for someone who wants to moderate or reduce or even stop the alcohol consumption. But yes, you're right. It has changed. It's almost like the Vegetarian or vegan movement that people are looking at a healthier lifestyle in alcohol than being a poison.
and I'm really happy to see around the world that there's more non-alcoholic alternatives. You have sober bars, most bars have no mocktails, and you also have a lot of beers, even Guinness now serving a zero alcohol beer. I was told though in the 12 step programs that non alcoholic drinks are for non alcoholics, and we were recommended not to drink them, but everyone can make up their own mind, and
If I'm eating out the pizza and so on I love a beer and I then go for non alcoholic beer. In that sense I was a beer lover before and I'm a beer lover now, but I just don't take the alcohol with it.
Sharad: One of the things I would notice earlier is that a lot of the mocktails would be sweet. So I didn't want to have sweet substitutes, but now there are things like, seed lip, and seed lip with tonic water is just so refreshing. It has all those botanical flavors in it and it's not necessarily sweet, but it gives you a good kind of fizz and makes you feel good.
So there's a lot more available that you can be sitting with your friends who are drinking, no judgments, and you could have
Nick Jonsson: what you want to have. Yes, absolutely. And it's about that inclusion, because we still need a place to go and socialize and hang out and Too many times in the past I think alcohol was at the center of it and it shouldn't be at the center of it because if you have a group of people hanging out with or without alcohol it's always going to be a bit tense the first few minutes and I think we have ingrained in us that we need a few drinks to get going but actually if you see people hanging out sober also after 5 10 minutes they are quite warmed up and I see that in the 12 step recovery meetings even showing up at 6 30 in the morning.
20-30 people around the table over a coffee. After a few minutes the conversations are warm. We are laughing. We are joking. We're having a good time. It's just that first moment when you're walking into a room of strangers that tends to be a bit cold and chill.
Sharad: That's so interesting. Alcohol helps in those icebreaker moments but knowing that you can find other ways to break the ice because in five minutes you'll be back into laughing and having conversation.
That's an interesting insight.
Nick Jonsson: I think that's the one big misperception that we think we need alcohol to socialize which, I'm a firm believer that that's not true.
Sharad: Thank you, Nick. We had such a wonderful conversation. We've covered so many areas. What's the bottom line advice that you'd like to leave someone with who's looking at drinking a little less and slowly moving towards being sober?
Nick Jonsson: Yeah, so the advice there would be for someone who perhaps is a grey zone drinker, someone who's questioning themself and alcohol. to look at it at the holistic view really question. Why am I drinking? Why do I need that drink to go to bed? Is it like a sleeping pill?
Do I need that glass of whiskey to fall asleep or what is it really? And address that holistically that would be my first recommendation and If there's anyone who's listening who has a major issue, someone who's clinically dependent, or perhaps if you have a family or friend or a colleague who's clinically dependent, then support to get help.
As I mentioned today, there is a 12 step program, which doesn't cost money. There's a whole world, all around the world in sobriety. And in Singapore by itself, it's about 20, 30 meetings a week.
Sharad: That is such a wonderful service, Nick.
Thank you very much for sharing your time with us, sharing your wisdom with us. I'm sure many people would want to work with you. We're going to have your details on the show notes, and people can contact Nick. Even if you're hesitant to work right now, you can look at all the content he's putting out.
There's so much useful stuff where all of us are going to benefit. So very much, Nick. Sharan. Thank you, Nick, for such an inspirational conversation. For more on Nick, please check the show notes. Here's something all of us could try.
Let's get curious about our alcohol habits. We don't need to quit, nor do we need to judge ourselves, but let's try and understand it. When do we drink? Why do we drink?
What does it do to us at that moment?
Then the next day. How Does our body feel? Our mind? Our energy? What impact does it have on our sleep?
What can we learn about ourselves? And is there any small little change that we'd like to make?
Best of luck for this inquiry. I hope you enjoyed this episode. The next one will drop two weeks from now on December 17th.
Do join us for that. Till next time, have a wonderful day ahead. Bye bye.