#094 Mindful Ambition with Bhavna Toor

Hi everyone. Welcome to How to Live, a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad. This is episode 94. What does it mean to live consciously and how do we find meaning without giving up ambition? That's what we are gonna explore today. Joining us is Bhavna Toor. Bhavna left a successful career as a vice president at a top investment bank in New York to return to Bangalore and build a mindful leadership platform.

She's a TEDx speaker. She's empowered over 20,000 women leaders, and in today's conversation, Bhavna and I talk about conscious living, ambition, failure, purpose, and becoming your authentic self. We'll unpack these big ideas in real relatable ways, but before we dive in, a big thank you. Thanks for your support in making How to Live a Top 3% podcast globally.

Listen to in 140 Countries. I'm truly grateful. Now let's jump in. Here's Bhavna Toor.

Hi Bhavna. Welcome to How to Live. It's great to have you on the podcast. 

 Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Same here. So you were a VP in an investment bank in New York, doing extremely well, but then something was missing and you decided to quit. 

Know Bhavna and her story, of leaving New York and finding herself

So if you can talk to us a little bit about that time. My life in New York looked great on paper and by all worldly measures my life indeed appears very successful. But for me, 

The slower realization was a disconnect that I started to feel especially with the kind of impact or the lack thereof I was making in my career. When I started thinking back to my childhood, my parents had a huge influence on me. My parents actually came from nothing, and especially my father, I. Grew up extremely poor in a small village in Ana, in India what's the name of the village, if you don't mind, Sanko. And growing up he didn't even have access to water or electricity or all the things that we take for granted.

 Nonetheless, he worked really hard and eventually. I joined the Indian Foreign Service, and that's how I ended up living in eight different countries around the world, including us. But I grew up hearing so many stories of how my parents struggled so I was acutely aware of how privileged and blessed I am to be living the life I was living 'cause I had my.

Parents made different choices. I could have easily been growing up in that remote part of India where women are still unfortunately, to a great extent discriminated against. But here I was with all of the freedoms and luxuries in life. I always had this thought that I should do more with my life.

I, that my life has a bigger purpose. Fast forward to living in New York. Of course it was very easy, exciting and rewarding, especially in that first decade of your life.

I have no regrets. I learned so much doing what I was doing, but I did start to feel this disconnect that I am really doing work that is aligned with my values? The more immediate trigger happened as I was thinking of transitioning to a different career, and I remember. This was towards the tail end of business school when I was at this interview interviewing for a role in consulting.

The pre-midlife crisis | only living a scripted life

 the woman sitting across from me turned to me and asked me, so tell me about a time you failed and what you learned from that. 

At the time, I just couldn't think of anything that felt honest or sincere enough to share. So I somehow fumbled my way through that interview. But that for me became my pre midlife existential crisis where I started to think about why.

Couldn't I answer that question and for weeks on end, I reflected on it and I realized the reason why I couldn't answer that question was because all my life, the one thing I had avoided was failure. Of course, I didn't have a good failure story. I was living my life so safely. Really following the societal script of success, but not really taking any big risks in my life.

And eventually I had to ask myself like, what has playing it so safe gotten me? Am I living a life that feels meaningful or fulfilling to the extent I would want? And the answer was A big fat no. And that she, for me,was a wake up call, and I knew that unless I took the time to figure this out.

And bring my life back into alignment. I would always regret it. And that's how at the time, I made this crazy decision to leave my comfortable life in New York behind and go off in exploration both professionally and spiritually to India to answer this question, what a fascinating story. and it's such an interesting concept that I haven't faced failure, so I've played it safe.

I don't know where the edges are, what I'm capable of. Maybe fulfillment and meaning I haven't pursued because I've gone after maybe the shiny stuff and things that have worked well. Yeah. So let me go to a place where I can grow spiritually and also probably experience life and failure. And then you chose India.

India: where I learned business, purpose, and mindfulness

Why India and how did you go about it? India because at the time when I was thinking of transitioning out of finance, I was really thinking about this idea of using business as a force for good. Mm. And there was a lot happening in India at that time, in the space of social entrepreneurship.

Mm-hmm. So when I moved to India, I spent close to three years. Experimenting advising, mentoring, social entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs that were using their talents to solve critical social problems, like access to healthcare, access to education, and more. I realized, instead of helping other entrepreneurs, I'd like to do something entrepreneurial myself.

And when I thought about it. Where I could add the most valueI'd come across this philosophy of mindfulness after a 10 day a Vipasana, meditation retreat that I did, and I realized that so much of our awareness

can get built when we just slow down and look within and there's so many answers and so much wisdom within, you search from room to room for the diamond necklace that was always around your neck. Mm-hmm. Moving to India and my journey with mindfulness helped me see that diamond necklace around my neck.

 and once I saw that, I knew I wanted to help others discover and see it as well. When I thought about where I could add more value, I really thought about the space of women's leadership. Because coming from the world of finance, where women were underrepresented, and I believe continue to be.

I thought, why not? Marry my love of women's leadership and mindful leadership and create a mindful leadership platform for women to help them lead, but more authentically, more consciously, more mindfully. 

The Vipassana that changed everything

 you felt your depth in Vipasana. Yes.

Which is like a 10 day silent retreat. Yes. When you realize that a lot of the things that you're looking for are already here mm-hmm. And you're gonna help other people find that. What was the thing that was already there within you? Which then you realize that, hmm, I already have this now let me go and help people find that.

I dunno whether it was values or what was that in you, which you wanted to then help people find for themselves? Yeah. I think it was about all the answers that I was searching for. For the longest time I was searching in books and taking one personal development course after another, reading every single self-help book that I could find.

But especially after the Vipasana experience combined with a life coach Hmm, who helped me really reflect on a lot of important questions like at the end of the day. What matters most to you? What is that legacy that you wanna leave behind?

What are the values that are most important to you? Forget the doing for a moment. Let's focus on the becoming. What is the kind of woman you wanna become? What is the kind of leader you wanna become and how can we help you express more and more of those values? Once I made this shift from doing to becoming, from searching to being, that is when I just started to feel so much peace that even when you don't have the answers, but when you are clear about what's most important to you and you are on a daily basis expressing that consciously.

That is when you start to feel that sense of alignment. If I could help others find it as well, they will show up as the best expression of themselves as well in their career, in their lives, everywhere. That's so interesting. You talked about this alignment and as you were talking about it.

I feel that two brains that come into play, especially for high performers like you, there's the rational thought process. You have a coach. Maybe you're looking at patterns and what is important to you. Yes. Through a value exercise, but there's an experiential, some things just seem right. Yes. And the combination of that tells you on the path of becoming where you're going, how to be present.

How did that come together? Absolutely. It is a combination of heart and mind. Especially as we're talking about high performance, yes, you wanna expose yourself to all of the tools and frameworks that can help you bring about those shifts, but those shifts, only you can tell how those feel on the inside.

 it always is a combination of mind and heart and the hard part is normally difficult for high performers. Yes. And I think you found that maybe Vipasana and some other things helped you clear out some of the noise and just be in alignment with yourself.

Tools for conscious living: meditation, journaling, the power of the pause and calendar

How should high performers do it? Let's say somebody else in Singapore is now working really hard, killing it like you or in New York,and they keep hearing about it. Let's hear what the internal body wants. Let's hear what is conscious, how do they get that access to themselves?

Yeah. Beyond the noise. Yeah. That's such a great question. So there's several ways of pausing and creating space for yourself to reflect. Meditation, of course, is one of the tools. It, of course, has a lot of scientific support for it. Even 12 minutes a day can permanently rewire your mind for greater calm, peace, and happiness. And of course, meditation strengthens the parts of the brain that are responsible for greater awareness.

 Journaling of course, is another way if you are giving yourself powerful questions to sit with and reflect on, through all of these, I think the fundamental question any of us can really ask to live more consciously is, what's most important to me? At the end of the day

What are my top most priorities? What are my most important values? And once you do the inner work of uncovering those. Conscious living is really all about creating an alignment between your inner world and your outer world, the question you wanna ask is, are the choices that I'm making in my day-to-day life and in my career, are they a reflection of those priorities and values?

And one quick test you can do is just look at your calendar. know what your values are. would it truly reflect what's most important to you, whether it's time with the family, whether it's your health, whether it's time for adventure along with, of course your work.

but you've very nicely broken it down here. So you talk about mindfulness, which is just being aware of what you're doing, what you're thinking.

It's awareness. Yes. Then you talked about values. These are things that are deeply important to us. They define us. Mm-hmm. And then you talk about conscious living wherever our values are. We are actually bringing it out to the world. Yeah, and a way to look at that is look at what you're doing in your calendar.

Shenomics: mindfully and holistically leading change 

Is that a reflection of your values? If yes, you are living consciously. Absolutely. Yes. So you started with mindfulness. Mm-hmm. And you also started with women . I want women leaders to be more mindful. Mm-hmm. And then you started the company Shenomics, 

 10 years back. This year we celebrate our 10 year anniversary. Congratulations. I know you have so many women leaders and non-women leaders through this. Yes. So that was mindfulness. Yes. And then slowly you started moving towards conscious living. Yes.

Was there a shift? Maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Yes. So I began with mindful leadership and mindful leadership and conscious leadership are almost synonymous. For me, what happened after a certain point of time is the realization Who we are is who we are everywhere.

How you do one thing is how you do anything. In my work with women, I saw that I could support them in showing up as their true, full, authentic self everywhere and not feel like they have to put on a mask or they have to be these different individuals. The more they grew in their confidence and in their abilities to lead more consciously as well. It's really about looking at yourself holistically. as you were working with women to help them identify their authentic leadership self and bring it out. What were some of the big challenges that you thought women were facing, and how was it that you helped them actually overcome those?

 it really falls into two buckets. One is a set of internal challenges and then you have challenges in the external environment. On the internal front is using mindfulness and self-awareness based work to help women do a lot of the unlearning.

Hmm. a lot of the conditioning that we take on almost unconsciously. A quick example,

If you are doing great work in the world, it's important that you talk about it, that you amplify your voice, you amplify your message, especially when there are others who can benefit from it. Mm-hmm. If you don't do that, you are doing a disservice to yourself and others. Mm-hmm.

But what I see, with a lot of women because of this conditioning, is this sense of, oh, but I don't know if I feel comfortable talking about my work or my accomplishments or my ideas. It feels self-promotional.and it feels like this is not me. And where are these ideas coming from 

 as a woman you cannot talk about your work Or if you do talk about your work it's somehow a negative, so it's about becoming aware of these beliefs and these biases and really unlearning that so that you can let your true, powerful self shine through and use the power of your values and your passion and your vision to make a bigger impact in the world.

 on the external front. Of course,it's 2025. And if you look at the World Economic Forum, it still says we are 131 years away from true gender parity. means we're five generations away from living in a world where we can truly say that all genders are living equally, and have access to everything equally.

 So there's a lot that still needs to be done. 

Making mission and money work together!

What a noble mission, and as you set out on this mission. Maybe I'll get some advice, because I'm also trying to figure this out. There's a noble part to a mission in starting a company and there's also a reality of where the rubber hits the road. And then sometimes the business mind comes in . Alright, how do I take this idea but create an entrepreneurial venture out of it, which can actually work.

How do you balance your hardcore values as well as commercializing, because sometimes, I don't know whether they come in conflict. What's the version that emerges? That is such an important question. when I was on this. Path, and I was confused what direction I could go in and what my coach helped me through was the framework of Ikigai, which I continue to find really helpful because it is about finding the intersection of four key things, what I'm good at, what I love doing, what is also financially viable.

 to your point, something that the world can pay me for and fourthly what the world actually needs. Needs.it is definitely a journey to uncover that.what are the skills that energize me,

How can I use my skills in a way that really does make a difference? of all the things that I could do, which, which of them is also financially viable?

And I feel like today, more than ever, we live in a world. Where I think a lot of us do have a lot more freedom in creating any career path. 

 if you find the intersection of your iki guy. Takes you outside of that traditional setup. I do think it opens you up to so many other opportunities as well. Ikigai is such a practical framework of doing it.

building on your point, there's so many opportunities out there. For example, sometimes maybe you do some other work and there's something else that gives you the fulfillment that you're looking for.

Ambition, which lasts, is fueled by meaningfulness

Something pays the bills, something gives you fulfillment. There are all kinds of models that we could employ. Sometimes you need more flexibility and time. It's all available. That's the good part of living in today's day and age. Mm-hmm. Now, one of the things that people, a conception around things like mindfulness and also conscious living, is that it might bring your ambition down.

 especially high performers. I've seen a lot of them shy away from it, that the more I go into it, maybe I'm not gonna get the president job or the CEO job with those kinds of things. What do you think of ambition and conscious living? I'm glad you're asking me this because it does allow us to bust a lot of the myths that currently persist around mindfulness.

And yes, one of those myths could be that it's going to slow me down and it's gonna kill my ambition. What I can tell you with complete confidence categorically what I have seen and experienced, is that mindfulness fuels ambition.

 There's this beautiful African proverb that goes along the lines of, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far, go together. And I think this proverb really captures what mindfulness really does. When I think back to my career in New York, speed was definitely of the essence. In fact, it wasn't just about running fast, but running faster than others.

but where am I running to? Mm-hmm. And I'm just trying to beat the other person, but where am I headed to? Where am I headed to? And can I be sure wherever I'm heading? Is going to give me that fulfillment, that peace, that sense of true success that I'm looking for.

 I couldn't be. So that's unconscious ambition. I was very ambitious back then as well. Today was the same. Even though ambition sometimes has a negative connotation. I think it's beautiful, yes. A beautiful quality to have because it really speaks to wanting to make use your talents or your skills or your energies to make a bigger impact 

And when you are doing it mindfully, it just charges you up because now you have a purpose. 

Purpose sits at the intersection of compassion and practice

 Today, I would say my ambition is stronger than ever. I can see that. I'm glad you brought up purpose, because we love talking about purpose. Yeah. What do you think of the purpose? What's your definition of purpose and where are you in the spectrum of living a life of purpose? Purpose to me is first asking yourself, who am I at my best?

 And doing everything in your power through choices, small and big every single day to show up as your best.The Venn diagram with two intersecting circles, the first circle would just be, who am I at my best? And that's a big piece of it because it's a never ending journey of your best and highest self.

The second circle is. How can I use my best to serve others? It's a combination of compassion, where you are thinking about how you can take the best in you. To make lives better for others, to ease the suffering of others in whatever way you can.

Doesn't have to be grandiose. It could be through daily interactions. It could simply be you showing up. With greater kindness For me, purpose sits right at the intersection of that. I love that. internal, going out externally to make an impact, which I find.

The foundation of self | uncover your values

Really beautiful.the big question, and maybe we unpack this we've referred to it a few times of who am I, which is linked to authenticity. Who am I at my best? Which is linked to maybe potential, How do we figure this out for ourselves? That seems to be the starting point of everything that you've said.

So maybe we go deeper into this. The strongest foundation of really getting to the core of that is uncovering your values. Mm-hmm. I think that has to be a starting point. Of course, there are many other elements as well.

 for example, the, it was really about looking at what shaped me in those early years, looking back to seeing those important points Yeah. In life which have shaped you those inflection points. Inflection points. Those tipping points, yeah. Those defining moments of your life where you were deeply inspired either by somebody else or by what was happening around you or by how you were showing up.

The second way of course is trying to ask yourself, what are the kinds of people that you are drawn to? Who are the people you admire? Because that tells us a lot about what we aspire to be like? It's not just.

Who am I in a static sense? Mm. But who could I be becoming?Yeah. Who would I like to grow into? Who would I like to be?

 And then the third thing I would say on a day-to-day basis is to really ask, pause, and ask yourself. in my week where I really felt alive?

Mm-hmm. What were those moments or those interactions where I felt whole and complete. And on the flip side as well, what was draining me?What?doesn't feel right. It starts to give you a sense of Naturally, authentically. What are you drawn to and what's not serving you? I think these are just some of the ways one can start to unpack who I am and who I would like to be. Very clear and practical, and covers these things. While you were doing this for yourself, whether it was key moments in life or something that energizes you, were there any surprising discoveries that you had about yourself?

A closet epiphany teaches aligning outer life with inner values

 On this path I'm constantly discovering myself and this is something I definitely like doing. And I think the surprising thing is. I'll give you a fun example. A few years into practicing conscious leadership I remember one day I opened my closet and, like.

clothes were just falling off. Like my closet was just stuffed to the brim with stuff. and I was like,what? this is not aligning with what I talk about.

How can you create it? Space in your mind when your environment is cluttered, cluttered with stuff. And so I decided I am going to start a shopping fast where I'm just gonna stop shopping, especially for clothes. 

 So what I started doing is I started collecting all the Sarees that my mom and my mother-in-law and other people had gifted me, which I wasn't wearing, and I worked with a designer too.

Perfect. Turn them into outfits for work. Excellent. So most of my workwear is made from these upcycled sarees. 

So that was definitely a fun discovery. Love that we talk about discovering oneself, and one of the ways people look at, especially when you're in the fast lane, is you need to take some time off. Yes. And I was talking to someone recently who was taking a year off after working for a long time after 25 years of work.

Just take a break without a plan

And you did that Correct. So for folks in their forties who are considering this, they're scared, what am I gonna do in that one year?Or what am I gonna tell people? et cetera. How should they approach this one year so they get closer to discovering themselves?

 just take a break, is to not go into that break with too much of a plan. A hundred percent. As high performers, there's this tendency to want to control every single aspect of your life.

But if you open yourself to serendipity, open yourself to boredom. We are so innately afraid of being bored and we reach for anything and everything, but just simply sitting with our thoughts. There's this really funny experiment where they took a group of individuals, an option given to them as you can either.

Sitting quietly for 15 minutes they left this machine that participants could just play around with. And if they play, it would give them an electric shock. Hmm. 60. They prefer electric shocks to sitting and getting bored.

Oh man. 67%. opted to give themselves an electric shock rather than just sit quietly with their thoughts. Not surprising, not surprising. One thing I've seen in my own journey as well as with others I know who have taken this conscious break is when they've just allowed themselves to be.

It's incredible. How from where opportunities may arise eventually you learn so much about yourself for me, it took me three years. 

It was only because for three years I gave myself the time and space to discover not everyone can give themselves three years. 

ButPut your plans aside and just allow yourself to explore. I love the concept of boredom. 

There's this guy who'd written about deep work, deep concentration, where he talks about Cal Newport. Cal Newport. Exactly. He talks so much about boredom, where then you can go deeper and it's very similar to what he talked about earlier, stillness. Going to yourself.

It's such an important thing because only when you get bored do you go inside. One of the other challenges that some people face is the community, the people around them. Oh, so you're gonna take one year off. What are you gonna do?

Knowing the 'why' is your strongest shield, stand firm

Why don't you do this? This one took a year off, and wasn't able to get back. So there's a lot of managing people. And there's some people who might energize you and tell you what to do. Like if they talk to you, they're gonna get some good stuff on what to do. But there are many who are gonna bring them down, make them feel guilty.

How do you manage the community around you so that you don't spend the one year just managing them and actually do things that you want to do? People will have an opinion yes. on what you're doing or what you're not doing. And it's not easy. My parents had no clue what I was doing, and how I could leave behind a career that looked great on paper

And of course friends may also question what exactly you are doing. I think in those moments I. Definitely one thing is you need to be clear about your why. The only thing that will allow you to hold your ground when you feel questioned is when you are clear about why you're doing this.

 Once you have the strong reason, I think what I found is I was then less affected by any kind of external validation or the lack thereof. Sometimes when you think that, alright, now I have time. Let me get into all these activities. Let me do this retreat. Let me go here. Let me write a book.

Let me start a podcast. You have a hundred things that you suddenly want to pack into those six months, and you never experienced the beautiful boredom we spoke about and went deeper. So what do you think about activities? I'm definitely all for trying different kinds of activities because they do give you avenues to learn more about yourself. Action in the world is important.

I always say. What really helps you become more self-aware is this magical combination of action and reflection. The purpose is not found sitting under a tree.

Exactly. So if you are exposing yourself to different activities, it's a good thing. Yeah. One has to find that healthy balance. Also give yourself weekends off just having fun or doing nothing.

enjoying that boredom, Yeah, yeah. As we have these things coming into our lifeYou, of course have the ambition part where you're working hard,and suddenly there's a whole host of things to do.

The four burner theory & seasons of life, helps manage what truly matters

 What's your way of managing the number of things suddenly that become important? Yeah. I think there are two things that really help there.

One thing I like is the idea of looking at your life in phases or in. Seasons. Seasons are good ones. Yes. Because you know, this is just a phase and it will end and I can treat the next season of my life differently. For example, for me the first three months of this year, I was. In the season of trying to finish my book, my schedule was so packed.

I had very little time for anything else. Mm-hmm. It was very little time for. Family, friends, even my health. So I'm usually a fitness freak and I like to go to the gym at least four to five times a week. And I was down to just maybe one day a week if I was lucky. But I was, I kept telling myself, in this season of life, this is what requires my attention. Next season, things will be different. Then the second theory that I find quite helpful, is this, four burner theory you have your four burners running at, any given.

The time you have, work is one burner. You have your family. A third of course is going to be healthy. And fourth could be a question mark. You can fill that in with whatever else is important to you. Maybe your hobbies, your interests

You wanna have one or two burners burning on high. Mm. While the other two, you could put them on medium or low flame. Mm-hmm. So it's not about turning any of the burners off, you're not neglecting, you're not avoiding, you're not sacrificing anything. But you do wanna be realistic.

It's about managing your expectations. You cannot have all four burners. Yeah, a hundred percent. Then that's literally burnout. That's literally burnout.

So I think it's about having that seasonal approach to life. You are writing a book on Conscious Living? Yes. Which is gonna be out in May. 

The book helps you to make conscious choice

 Can you talk a little bit about the book? Yes. The book is called The Conscious Choice, Hundred Ideas in Living and Leading Mindfully. And the core idea of the book is that everything with a few exceptions is a conscious choice. 

 In the book, I'm talking about how you can make a hundred choices consciously . For example, Luck. Mm. 

You are either lucky or you are not. And the fascinating thing is actually it is a choice.I cite the work of Richard Wiseman, who wrote this book called Luck Factor, where he did this.fascinating study looking at two groups of people. One group identified as lucky, the other group identified as unlucky.

They were both given the same exerciseThe first group that identified as lucky finished the exercise in seconds. The second group took. Almost four times as long. The point is, when you choose to identify as lucky, you open yourself up to more opportunities.

expanding your luck surface area. whereas when you choose to identify yourself as unlucky, you almost start to close yourself off to opportunities.

So even something like luck, which you would think is just fate, actually is a conscious choice. Mm. 

 All the best for your book. Thank you.

The wind-up

 We have this last question we ask everyone. at the end of your life.

How would you know you've lived a good life? Oh my God, that's such a powerful question. There are two things I would look to One would be the sense of peace that I feel in my own heart to be able to say that I did everything I could to try to become the best version of myself and to use the good in me to serve others.

And the second thing I would look to is the love that I am leaving behind in the hearts of others to know that I have made even a small difference in the lives of people around me. And to be able to confidently say, yes, this was a life well lived. You certainly are living a life, which you're still living really well. So thank you very much for spending this time with us,

We loved having you in the How to Live Podcast. I really enjoyed speaking to you today and,

pick up a copy of the Conscious Choice. Certainly we leave a link to the copy as well as to your profile where they can get in touch with you as well.

Thank you, Bhavna. Thank you. Sharad