#095 How to move when you're stuck, a conversation with Sharad Lal

[00:00:00] Michelle: I'm so excited to get into this with you. I'm gonna try and not let this spiral into a therapy session because I basically, I'll, I'll try as well not to, not to go into a therapy session for this.

[00:00:11] I secretly want a coaching session with you without having to pay for it. So I thought this could be the way. So yeah, really there's so many questions that I wanna ask you. But I think the first one is. How would you explain what it means to be purpose driven? I hear that term a lot. Yes. What, what does that actually mean?

[00:00:30] Sharad: So, I've heard this as, and I thought it was like a buzzword thrown around for ages and when I thought a little bit about it, I associated purpose as this one thing we are supposed to do, we are gonna find our calling and do that. In other places I've looked at it is that people look at it as social service.

[00:00:48] I'm gonna do some social service and call it purpose. Mm-hmm. And I was trying to figure out what really does this word mean? And if I go back to the basics and see, all right, what is the purpose of various things? So this is a glass, it has water, it's purpose to store water, and we drink through it. But we as human beings have multiple faculties.

[00:01:06] We have intellectual thought, creative thinking. We can connect with people, well, we can use our hands to create new things. So our purpose, in my view, is multi-dimensional. And the way I look at purpose is to create a life with purposeful activities. Whether it is connecting well with people, whether it's using our intellect to solve problems and create something.

[00:01:30] Whether it is using our creative skills to create something beautiful in this world when we are doing these activities which fulfill us and make a difference to others. For me that is a purpose for life. And that's how I define purpose. 

[00:01:43] Michelle: I think it's, I find it overwhelming sometimes when people say you have, you know, what's your purpose?

[00:01:48] Or you have to write a purpose 'cause you are right. Your mind automatically goes to, that one single drive that's normally. And often talked about as, as being in service to others or service to some someone else. But that might not necessarily bring you joy 

[00:02:03] Sharad: and service could be one part of it.

[00:02:05] But I think you brought up a great point. To me, the starting point is something that is deeply important to you. To us. Mm-hmm. That's where it starts. It's a, it's an important story we might have. It's, it's a value that's important to us that's coming out right now. Something that can bring us that fulfillment.

[00:02:25] And then we take it out and make a difference to others. Yeah. So, but it has to start internally for it to be sustainable and for it to have the energy and the motivation to make us do something. Yeah. 

[00:02:37] Michelle: How, how do we find that? I'm sorry, I've gotta just ask because it's like, okay, that sounds, that sounds great.

[00:02:42] Yeah. But that like, how, how there's so many, so much noise, so much, so many. So many things that we feel we should be doing. Yeah. Or could be doing or are told. Yeah. You know, or we're seeing other people do. We're receiving so many communications these days, like where do we go? How do we find our purpose?

[00:03:03] Yeah. 

[00:03:03] Sharad: So let's, let's see the model of how things are happening right now, and then we go into it. So exactly the way you said right from childhood, we are told what to do. We are given goals, we are given external achievements, and if we do well, everyone claps and we, there's a positive reinforcement and we keep doing that.

[00:03:19] Over a period of [00:03:20] time we compete with others, there's jealousy. So in the way we look at life, the way we go through the world is looking externally, whether it's for inspiration, whether it's to do better, whether it's for goals, whether it's to do for achievements, and doing this for 30, 40 years. We lose touch with what truly matters.

[00:03:39] And then when we need to figure out what matters to me, many of us don't know. In fact, sometimes we look outside to see what matters to us, what marketing throws at us, what magazines show us. But the way to do it is to cancel all this noise because this sits as noise inside us. Hmm. So if you're able to remove this noise, it's more like an excavation.

[00:04:01] We are not going out. We're going into our inner world. Once we go into our inner world, we remove all the noise to go deeper into it. That's when we can get a sense of what's important to us. 

[00:04:14] Michelle: Do you mean meditation? 

[00:04:15] Sharad: So there are many ways to remove the noise. Mm-hmm. One of course, clear, simple way is meditation, because what meditation does is it cuts out all the stimuli.

[00:04:26] And when we do it over a period of time, we focus inside. And as we start meditating, many people have this experience. You realize that. The world does not exist outside. It actually exists inside us. The world's inside us. Whatever we see, we perceive it's all inside us, and that becomes fascinating. Our emotions, what turns us on, what gets us excited, it's all inside us.

[00:04:50] if we don't meditate, maybe through journaling. You just write whatever's coming in your mind and you take out the top layer. And over a period of time we go deeper into, Hey, what's important? And writing without judgment, without shame, we just reporting what's inside there.

[00:05:06] All these things, whether it's meditation, writing questions, key questions, what matters in life, when have you, and looking back to life, when have you felt energized? Your full power? What really gets you out of bed without anyone looking at you with something that's important to you through this level of inquiry, whether it's writing meditation, we start getting a sense of what's important to us.

[00:05:31] And it's a process because it takes a while, because remember for 40, 30, 40 years, we've never looked inside. So the first time we look inside, it's obviously scary, like. Oh my God, what's going on? I'm, this person said something. I thought I wasn't petty. I'm getting upset and I want to get back at this person.

[00:05:48] And there's a whole lot of that stuff that happens when we look inside. So it takes us a few years to kind of get over, not judging ourselves for all the weird thoughts and impulses we are having. I. To actually understanding what's important. 

[00:06:01] Michelle: I'll be really honest, I'm still not quite clear on my purpose.

[00:06:03] Yeah. Is that normal? To not be clear on it? 

[00:06:06] Sharad: it takes a while. I think there's some parts of your purpose. You're already living the way I can sense like time with your kids. There's good creative time with your kids. That's part of purpose. Yeah. You seem to be doing that.

[00:06:16] What I understand is more from a career standpoint, vocation career, that's where you're trying to figure out where your purpose is. Is that, would that be fair? Or, or you, on a journey to, to something. I'm just on 

[00:06:27] Michelle: a journey, so I've gone from kind of having 15 years in advertising agencies. Yes. And then, and then going to corporate when going to work for Disney and then leaving corporate and.

[00:06:38] Setting up my own consultancy and then [00:06:40] now joining a startup. I'll be really honest, I've loved every single job and experience that I've had. Like I'm, I'm particularly enjoying the startup at the moment just because I'm so passionate about this product's gonna change the world. And you know, I'm, and I, I love being creative and strategic and solving problems and communicating and talking to people and working with people and, and producing something and, and seeing results.

[00:07:05] And, you know, I've got all of these, so I'm very lucky and grateful to be doing something that I love, but I'm like, is is that a purpose? Is my purpose? 

[00:07:16] Sharad: this is something that happens with, overachievers people who achieve a lot. Yeah. Purpose is the act of doing these things.

[00:07:22] So it seems like you're having intellectual stimulation, creativity, et cetera, but then something is not fully there and maybe, yeah. You are on the path towards it. When I had this, my journey, my first way of evaluating myself was money net worth. Mm-hmm. achievements, titles. Then I went through an experience where I said, all this is bullshit.

[00:07:40] Yeah. I need to look for purpose and I need to look for other things. I thought there's this, this conflict between achievement and fulfillment purposely in the fulfillment land. So I hated money and I was starting to do fulfillment projects.

[00:07:55] Over a period of time I was doing good purposeful activities, but When I would see someone getting promoted and doing well, I would say, Hmm, it doesn't feel good. First, I would fool myself, but then I would say, Hmm, I actually missed that, and then I realized that there is this achievement mindset, which I've been trying to squash.

[00:08:15] That's not the issue I can try and reframe. Achievement to more meaningful achievement for myself. Mm. And that becomes purposeful. So it's, we still need goals. We still need some way, especially high achievement people of knowing we are achieving stuff

[00:08:34] Am I able to make an impact to people? Am I able to talk to certain companies?

[00:08:37] Do I have certain recognition? 

[00:08:40] Michelle: I want respect.So I had some of these criteria, which were to do with actually respect and recognition. 

[00:08:46] Sharad: We need like high achievement people. We need some anchor. Yeah. And I think in your process of finding it, it's still an early stage for the startup. Yeah. But with time and you're doing good work and maybe something's missing, you will be able to define something within it.

[00:09:03] Mm. Which to you internally in your own world feels like an achievement. Yeah. Which is meaningful. Makes you feel proud. Suddenly you learn a new skill that makes you feel proud. So for me, standing on stage and being able to tell stories. I used to be a, B, c, g, boring framework kind of a guy. Now I'm telling the same thing in a story form.

[00:09:23] It's a new skill. Seeing it land, seeing tears in people's eyes when I talk it. To me that then I define my achievement through that, but I need that achievement. 

[00:09:33] Michelle: Yeah. 

[00:09:34] Sometimes when you define everything by an achievement, yes, it doesn't work. Like because you're missing, you're missing the pur, you're missing the purpose and the reason, I think a little bit like this podcast to like, in full transparency, I, I was like, you know, I wanna start creating content and then, you know, hopefully I can monetize it and it can be kind of a, a nice, like separate income stream at the, you know, and I, I was like, I've worked in social influencer content marketing for 18 years.

[00:09:58] I know [00:10:00] this. It has been the most humbling experience of my life. 

[00:10:02] Sharad: Every podcaster knows that it's extremely. Humbling experience. 

[00:10:07] Michelle: Yeah. You're like, okay. But but what has evolved over the last year of podcasting is, it's what I've got out of it. I've got out those just amazing conversations with the most incredible people, and I've learned so much about myself selfishly.

[00:10:21] I've learned a lot about myself. I've just loved hearing people's stories and pulling those inside out. And, and the value of that now to me is greater than any number of followers. 

[00:10:33] Sharad: If I can just, just an idea struck me like. I know a little bit of Sean in your business. Mm-hmm. So maybe it's not like the big product in hand.

[00:10:41] Yeah. 'cause that could take a while. Maybe it is your unique skill that you've learned. It's connecting the dots. Yeah. Through social media, podcasting experience that you are able to get a neuroscientist who's not got this experience Yeah. Out there into the world where doors start opening for the company and you've been uniquely been able to do that.

[00:11:01] And some doors opening, maybe some revenue stream coming. Because of your unique effort along with that, I think that is something to feel proud of. That is an achievement, and then it builds from there. Maybe then it's a new skill. Yeah. Maybe there's you understanding other things. I don't know 

[00:11:18] Michelle: for sure.

[00:11:19] And I also think it's not about me. You know, the, the product and the neuroscientist behind it, it, it's, it's going to change the world. Yeah. You know, and that for me is like, you know, that's about using all of my skills to build that platform Sure. And get that out. So, yeah. I think I, I think it's just. Do.

[00:11:38] Do we need to define everything with a purpose? 

[00:11:41] Sharad: I don't think so. I think it's a tool. Mm. And sometimes the tool seamlessly comes into our life. Sometimes. To me, the biggest thing in this entire purpose discussion is the inner world. Mm. And understanding what's inner world, understanding what's motivating us.

[00:11:58] Understanding that, hey, we are actually in transition, but I'm feeling a little uneasy. But knowing that, and then. As we are checking in, reflecting, understanding, we are figuring out our path. Yeah. And at times you're in a place where it seems like. Even a month back, like I, I, I'm talking about purpose and I seem very clear.

[00:12:17] A month back I'm like, damn, what am I doing? I had this, I sold my agency. I'm gonna talk to HR people. I don't know how to talk to them. This, that, what am I doing? Like, so we will have those moments. Yeah. And we can at least be, instead of fooling ourselves, be in touch with the inner world. That this is part of it.

[00:12:35] Yeah. This is part of it. And maybe later we see something else and then we move on. But I think it's this touch with our inner world. Checking with it. Without hiding from it, without letting things build up. Knowing ups, downs, things are gonna feel weird for a period of time. 'cause when we are uncomfortable, we we're in the middle of that change.

[00:12:54] We can't see it. Yeah. And then shifts will happen and we celebrate and enjoy that. 

[00:12:58] Michelle: And are there any like tools that you've come across that can help. Help people make sense of like, of, of who they are. You know, I'm, I'm thinking things like your human design. Yeah. Or, or astrology or, you know, whatever.

[00:13:15] Sharad: I think they're all types of tools, so mm-hmm. In the rational kind of thinking so [00:13:20] early from a rational word. You talked about therapy. I think that itself is a huge tool. 

[00:13:25] Michelle: Yeah. 

[00:13:25] Sharad: I, I learned a, I I've had a lot of therapy and I love therapy. I've had all kinds of therapy. Yeah. You get a very good understanding of who you, why you are, who you are, your patterns, right, from childhood, and if you can look at it from a non-judgmental kind way, it's, it's a good thing to do.

[00:13:44] In the spiritual realm. There is this concept, both Buddhism, Hinduism, it's et. There's the concept of being a witness to yourself where you are seeing what you are doing, you are seeing what gets you lit up, what you get attracted to, what your pattern is, how even bad things like, I don't know, envy and jealousy, build up comparisons.

[00:14:08] How things light you up, how sometimes you're manipulative, how sometimes you're helpful. I. That is once you remove judgment and the spiritual self says, without judgment, just observe yourself. That is such a big way of understanding yourself. 'cause we're not trying to change, we are trying to curiously observe the same thing I would say in therapy, that mindset.

[00:14:31] 'cause if you're trying to change, we will judge yourself like crazy. All of us do that and we can do it at times, but we are all flawed. We all have weird. all kinds of things. We have like the worst things you talk about, all of us have that. Mm. But if you can look at it with curiosity and then slowly, like you said, even when you peeled it for another person, you see the setting that you're born in.

[00:14:53] That is why I am like this. This is why society is that you understand yourself in a bigger plane like you understood someone else. Imagine understanding yourself because you have all the nuances of seeing yourself. Yeah. You see, then you have compassion for yourself. Yeah, that's what true self-compassion is, and they talk about how self-compassion is one of the biggest ways.

[00:15:13] Better than therapy or anything else to really kind of understand yourself. There's a lot of work done on that. Yeah, so I would say whether we go in the ancient wisdom world and be a witness to ourself in any way, which is self-awareness, or there are certain patterns and archetypes and stuff that exist, call all these psychologists, whichever way we go.

[00:15:33] I like both to get an understanding of myself. 

[00:15:36] Michelle: Yeah. I'm definitely like a data person. You know, I kind of almost like being told, but yeah, it, it's also I think being able to read some of these things and say, okay, I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna take this, this is what I feel about these things.

[00:15:52] And then maybe the rest isn't, isn't, you know, relevant to me or I'm not feeling it. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:15:58] Sharad: I like journaling as well. I keep talking about it. Yeah, me too. It's just taking stuff out and if you do it over a period of time, you see the same pattern and then you realize, Hmm. I say that I like, that's how I find of realize that I actually want achievement because I then call myself out.

[00:16:14] I, I, I say, I don't want achievement, but I'm getting jealous when this guy does this. I'm getting jealous when he's going up like I'm, and that's building resentfulness. I'm not happy for the person. It's like weird. Then I call out that this is this pattern that I have it, I can't fight it. Now let me point it somewhere else.

[00:16:31] So I think journaling for sure, over a period of time you see your patterns. Mm-hmm. And you get an understanding of yourself. And the [00:16:40] way for transformation for me is we don't fight that with that. Which way do we work? I am like this. Now what do I do? Yeah. What do I do with this person that I have who's like this?

[00:16:49] How do I make this person work in the best way? 

[00:16:52] Michelle: And when you're journaling, are you just putting pen to paper and letting your mind go? And 

[00:16:56] Sharad: I've had different styles at different times right now. Yeah. I like my beautiful fountain pen. Great paper. And just open journaling. Mm-hmm. There was a coach called Jeremy Colonna, I think.

[00:17:08] And I like what he says. He says, start with I am feeling. So you start with feeling, so I'm, I am feeling a little angry, and they're like, oh yeah, actually I'm feeling angry. I didn't even realize it. Why? Because I don't know. Someone moved my coffee or whatever or something. Yeah. I stuck to my toe. Yeah. So, so you start at that level at where you are.

[00:17:26] Yeah. And that'll help go. And like if you do three pages typically, let's say morning paper style. Mm-hmm. Yes. Even in that thing, we go from the top kind of issue, from a feeling way to a deeper thing. Mm-hmm. What Jeremy Corona does very well is. He uses, like we have many voices in it. There's a evil voice.

[00:17:44] There's a nice voice. There's all kinds of of things inside. Like there's a lot of personalities sitting inside us. Yeah. He gives them all a voice so they don't come out in the real world. Oh, love that. And use the different pen for, oh, the mean one is the Hi. Alright. Let's say what the mean. One has to say.

[00:17:57] Say whatever means stuff you want say about others. Oh, the compassionate ones there. Let's say there. So you're giving voice to. Things that you don't wanna bring out to the world as well. 

[00:18:06] Michelle: I'd like to talk a little bit about momentum as well and maybe maybe that kind of downward to upward spiral you know, to, to anyone kind of on that downward spiral or kind of feeling in a dark, helpless place. I know we've talked a lot about going inside but sometimes things feel really hopeless.

[00:18:28] Yeah. What advice have you got to somebody who's maybe there and how they can get out of that? 

[00:18:34] Sharad: I have noticed that at any stage there are all kinds of emotions that'll come. So, like you said about hopelessness. Related to hopelessness. If we start becoming aware of the emotions that are existing, there could be many, so there could be hopelessness, there could be anger, there could be sadness, there could be many things.

[00:18:52] And if we figure out what is each emotion doing? This takes a little practice. There'll typically be one emotion that's actually moving us forward. Mm-hmm. It need not be the positive emotion. It could be any, so for example. I have noticed some people when they get fired from their job, they're so angry that they use their anger to create a resume and get a better job than they had.

[00:19:17] So there could be one element taking you forward. For me, during my darkest moment, I was looking at how to move forward. I was trying different things. Nothing was working still. I did a chakra cleansing yoga class and I cried in front of everyone for the first time. And what surprised me that I moved forward.

[00:19:35] So for me, among all the emotions that were there, sadness was the one to go into because sadness moved my mental state forward. Help me in the process of healing. So my advice would be, look at, there is not just one emotion, maybe one is talking loudly to you. There are many emotions and it's most like a pool game.

[00:19:56] There are many of these pool balls. Use one [00:20:00] that'll move you forward and that's tactically you may not be healed, but you moved forward and moving forward could be. You've gotten your clothes on and gone to work, I don't know. Yeah. You've gone by yourself and eaten a meal outside. Not no one needs to do something.

[00:20:15] So whatever. There's, there's a certain step forward. You've done, you made your resumee, which has come out of an emotion, and once you've done that and moved to point B, a new set of emotions arrive and then you might need something else. Maybe there's hope. False hope that takes you to the next day. And false hope is a good companion to have for a tactical point of time.

[00:20:36] That's why changes. We don't use this for all our life. We use it for one stage. Mm-hmm. We can use false hope. I use false hope for about a month, and it really served me well till it was time to discard it because it was not doing me harm. So at every stage we see, is this emotion now moving me forward or is it debilitating you?

[00:20:58] After a point of time, sadness debilitated me because it just put me down. But it helped me for a period of time. And then I needed something else. Yeah, I needed false hope and that helped me. But after a period of time, I was living in fulls paradise, so I needed something else in that mood. So it's the laddering of emotions in my view that create the upward spiral.

[00:21:20] And these may be negative emotions. You may not be feeling good, but you're moving. And with time we are learning about ourselves, things are happening. This starts turning into a happier momentum upward loop. 

[00:21:33] Michelle: I love that. And I, I think so much of it's compounding as well. Compounding. 

[00:21:38] Sharad: That's a great point.

[00:21:38] You know, it's that. 

[00:21:40] Michelle: The small things, you know? Mm-hmm. You get up every day and you brush your teeth. Right. The next day, you put your shoe, you know, you put, you get dressed the day after and, and actually just doing all of these things over time, you know, okay, I'm gonna go for a run, I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna go for a run.

[00:21:54] And they compound. And then before you know it, you are, you're running a marathon, you're back to work. And, and things are great 

[00:22:00] Sharad: and it's, every stage is also building your self-esteem. 

[00:22:03] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, massively. And we were, we were gonna talk today, I love out completely direct about career transitions and finding your purpose in your thirties and forties.

[00:22:15] And I'll be honest, I, I've, I've been so grateful and I've loved the last few years and, and an. The, the change that has happened within me has just been amazing. And like I, I'm, I'm so grateful for it and I love it, but there is this part of me that's going, God, if I'd have known this back when I was in my early twenties, my life looks so different right now.

[00:22:36] And I think that that fear is like, oh God, you year late when you're getting into your late thirties, is this, is this too late? 

[00:22:42] Sharad: I think we have to have our journey. I also think about it that I wish I'd known some of these things earlier. And I look at myself as a 20-year-old, if I told myself this, he'd say, just get go to hell.

[00:22:53] Yeah, totally. He think that Don't go drinking. Like you talking about these. Yeah. What's the fun in life then? Right? Yeah. You should feel so we are ready for things at different stages, I feel. Mm-hmm. The only thing I would've loved to tell myself is this inner world, because I kind of suffered alone quite a bit, which I didn't know.

[00:23:09] But it's good to be in touch with your inner self as much as you with your outer self. But other things, I think they need to follow a process. Yeah. Now, let's talk about folks in their thirties who are stuck, how to think about life. [00:23:20] I think one of the biggest things that hold people back is they think, where should I be headed?

[00:23:26] Where's my destination? And often the destination is not very clear. And because sometimes the destination is not clear, people just stick with what they're doing. I'll just stick with my job because, oh, I don't have a purpose, so let me just do my job. At some stage, things go wrong, the first thing to know is when we are looking at making a change, we don't need a destination because the destination is gonna be very different from what we ever imagined it to be.

[00:23:51] Yeah, we need to just get moving. How do we get moving? the first thing is motivation. Quite often when we work for 15, 20 years. It's very different. Just imagine when you started working in your twenties. I still remember the first day p and g Singapore, excited wanna change the world. If I didn't have work, I would go to my boss.

[00:24:11] I wanna do more work. There was an excitement, novelty, A new stage in life after 15 years of the corporate world. For a lot of people, yeah, the bureaucracy that gets hammered out, there's exhaustion. So how do we find the motivation here? That's the first thing, and it lies around purpose. Purpose need not be this one big thing.

[00:24:32] But it also, once we start doing this exercise on what's important, we can realize that a lot of the things that we are doing right now are actually purposeful. Thinking about using our intelligence to solve a problem, creating this new product. We are growing, suddenly we have a new skill. We can stand on stage and talk.

[00:24:48] These are purpose. We connect with the same thing, but our mind shifts and we start having a little motivation. So through that motivation is the first thing that we build. The second thing we can do, it's time for house cleaning. Mm-hmm. Right? We've brought so much of this fear-based identity. So there's this thing, when you have everything in this world is one of the things my downfall taught me.

[00:25:13] When I hit rock bottom, I felt a sense of relief and I was like shocked. Like my loved ones left gone. Like why am I feeling relief? And I read up about it and there's something in Buddhism that says, and I'm paraphrasing. When you have everything in the world, you're fearful that something is gonna go and you're clenching onto it.

[00:25:33] There's fear, you're just holding. You're not enjoying it because you are holding onto it. And when everything's taken away from you, you lose everything that's bad, but you gain one thing, fearlessness, there's nothing to lose. And with that fearlessness, you can question who you are, question certain setups.

[00:25:55] About life and make those changes. My whole point is, as you turn to 30 fives forties, a lot of us have had success. We just holding onto that, what if we could have the same fearlessness but also have things, and building that fearlessness comes from releasing the fear, which comes from right to understanding our identity, that I'm this person who's a.

[00:26:21] High net worth individual, great titles, et cetera. People come to me for this. Now I'm shifting to now I have to just let go of this identity over period of time because I'm clenching onto it so badly that I'm doing weird stuff to maintain it. Yeah, so releasing it is part of it, like you [00:26:40] talked about releasing and letting go whichever way we have it.

[00:26:42] It could be intellectual releasing, and that has to be shifted to a growth mindset. How are we open to something new? How do we face the fear of all this going away? So that the brilliance that we have with all the experience that we've got can come out in a new way. We can't see it right now. We can't, we may not see it for five years, but if we start doing some work in housekeeping and removing all these fixed things in whichever way, just removing, removing is more important than adding.

[00:27:16] I don't even want to add new potential. Yeah. I wanna just remove all these weird habits, identity things in whichever way. Yeah. So then there's space for me to grow. The space for me to reinvent. So I've got some and I, that's why I need the motivation to do this work. So I've got some motivation. I'm doing this house cleaning, and in the process of house cleaning, like we talked about it earlier, you realize that, oh, I have these skills, which I have not used.

[00:27:40] Craft is important. I love connecting people. And that then starts coming into. Some sort of an idea. That's the exploration stage. Next, you take some of this like you are doing, right? Mm-hmm. You're exploring with the podcast, you're learning something. It's not the final thing, but you've learned something.

[00:27:58] Yeah. You're exploring with the startup. You're exploring the, with all this, there's an exploration stage, and of course, sometimes it feels irritating. Mm-hmm. But we are in the right direction because we can't see it. Yeah. And through this exploration with time, we're able to find the path. Like right now.

[00:28:13] For you, you know you've got good activities. Maybe you need an achievement anchor. Something to go after. Yeah. Maybe that's what's missing. Then you go there. Maybe then something else is missing. So purpose becomes a process of doing this because the minute you kind of get to the final state, you change something, changes, and then you need to do it again.

[00:28:32] Yeah. So enjoying this process of shifting, changing, achieving some anchor, achieving some. Place to be then go into the next place. That is this whole process. So even so, for the people stuck, we don't know where we are headed. This is the way to get started. Some motivation, some inner work. We are just doing inner work going on.

[00:28:54] Yeah. Removing all our stuff, some exploration. We are just trying different things and with all this we are getting more, more, more, more information. The real information rubber hits the ground. Yeah. We're then able to. Shot out our path. Mm-hmm. And then we realize it's not destination, it's direction. 

[00:29:12] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:29:12] Sharad: Directionality, I'm in the right kind of direction. That's fine. 

[00:29:16] Michelle: Yeah. I was just about to say to you, it's the journey, isn't 

[00:29:18] Sharad: it? It's, 

[00:29:19] Michelle: you know, it's not, it's your purpose isn't the destination. No. You know, it's, I maybe have, it's this process. Yeah. 

[00:29:26] Sharad: Even though it's cliche, but that's what it is. 

[00:29:28] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And you gotta enjoy the journey.

[00:29:31] Sharad: Yeah. 

[00:29:33] Michelle: Oh man, Sharad, I could, I could literally have like 10 more interviews with you because this has just been so insanely insightful. Thank you so much. Thank you, Michelle. Your energy is just amazing as well. I'm like, thank you. Thank you. This has been so good. I'm a hundred percent sure I will be phoning you up saying we have to do another one.

[00:29:55] So yeah, really, really thank you so much and you've de definitely given me some. Food for thought, but [00:30:00] I also feel less worried in having to define my purpose. Mm. I think I'm already living it. 

[00:30:07] Sharad: Wow. That's brilliant. Thank you very much. Thank you. I love this conversation and if that's the message people can take.

[00:30:14] Yeah. Let's take the pressure out of purpose. Mm. Let's just take that pressure out and we'll just try and live part of it. 

[00:30:21] Michelle: Yeah. 

[00:30:22] Sharad: And we'll slowly live it fully. I think. I love that. If that's the message, 

[00:30:25] Michelle: that's a, that's a keynote for you. There you go. I've given you your next keynote. But yeah. 'cause there's pressure isn't there to find your purpose.

[00:30:32] Sharad: Absolutely. 

[00:30:33] Michelle: Really thank you. And then to everyone still listening I hope you've loved this episode as much as I have. I will link to all of sherrod's amazing platforms below. Please reach out if you've got any questions.

[00:30:44] Definitely comment on this video and, and we'll both respond. With any advice or stories or we'd just love to hear yours. So really thank you again. And thank you everyone for listening and keep spiraling upwards. Thanks. Bye.